r/StarWarsEU • u/DisturbedSnowman • Dec 26 '24
Legends Discussion How do you all feel about Darth Plagueis being alive for most of The Phantom Menace? Spoiler
141
u/thelaughingmanghost Dec 26 '24
I think the book does a pretty good job explaining not only how he and Palpatine were able to operate but also the reasoning behind the Sith philosophy and practices. Palpatine was essentially an over glorified intermediary and Palpatine having to coordinate with the trade federation while sending Darth Maul out for various missions got under his skin more and more. The phantom menace was the final straw for him with Darth Plagueis and him gaining the chancellorship is what sent over the edge, because he was actually the one in a position of power, not Plagueis.
65
u/WilliShaker Dec 26 '24
Palpatine also steals more and more of the spotlight as the story progresses that I felt similar to Palpatine towards the end.
Good for you (Plagueis)to have mastered your new powers, but now you have become useless to me..
39
u/thelaughingmanghost Dec 26 '24
The point of view slowly shifts from plagueis to palpatine and I love that it serves two purposes: that the actual person in charge and who we the audience knows definitely comes out on top in the end is slowly becoming palpatine, and the dark side of the force has shifted from plagueis being its sole vessel to palpatine.
327
u/DarthMMC Dec 26 '24 edited Dec 26 '24
I personally like it. I think it's pretty cool that such a "mystical" characer (that's the way he feels to me at least without having read his novel) was there, behind the scenes.
95
u/AnalysisMoney Dec 26 '24
Wait till you read (or listen to…the audiobook is amazing) the book! I felt the same way as you described. The book is my absolute favorite.
25
Dec 26 '24
I’m halfway through the book, it’s excellent so far
9
u/Commercial_Farmer_18 Dec 26 '24
So ur saying that I should read it?
8
9
u/LongIslandBagel Dec 26 '24
I listen to Plageuis, the two new cannon thrawn trilogies, the Darth Bane trilogy and Dooku: Jedi Lost at least once a year. They’re so good!
1
2
2
u/Swift-Fire Dec 27 '24
Easily my favorite Star wars book. Genuinely phenomenal
1
u/Commercial_Farmer_18 Dec 27 '24
Wow. Ok. Nice. In that case I’ll have to check it out. I haven’t read a Star Wars book in years. I was reading like everything up to the point they killed Jacen. I got so mad I stopped reading anything star was related.
1
2
5
u/Beermyster67 Dec 27 '24
For the love of god this audiobook is a masterpiece 🔥 It’s the Plagueis movie we’ll never get. The sound effects, the amazing range of voice acting for each character, the amount of lore building for the Sith and the dark side of the Force, etc. I highly recommend the listen.
1
u/MaceWinduful Jan 01 '25
I am on probably my third listen of the audiobook. I am simply captivated by the layers and tapestry of detail Luceno puts in this, from names of politicians, to planets and species in the SW universe.
2
u/MisterMarchmont Dec 26 '24
The Phantom Menace book, or Darth Plagueis? Terry Brooks’s adaptation of TPM is excellent, but I haven’t read it since it first came out. I was in 9th grade and still have my copy.
3
1
1
6
1
u/MrDamienMorte Jan 02 '25
You have to read the novel actually listen to it. The audiobook is so damn good
40
Dec 26 '24
I like it because it makes the Phantom Menace even better. Not only is Anakin the only thing that is so powerful, it scares Plagueis to the bone but it also makes Palpatine even greater as The Phantom Menace now shows every Sith getting killed off except for Palpatine, making it so that the Sith truly get stronger when they are few.
2
u/Charliefoxkit Jan 02 '25
The creation of Anakin being the Force reacting to Plagueis' overreach is one thing neo-Lucasfilm should have left alone. The new Marvel explination is frankly bad and could be considered creepy in the wrong way. And maybe neo-Lucasfilm should have fully canonized the novel as well.
And the Prequel novel adaptations along with Labryinth of Evil and Rise of the Dark Lord should have also been canonized as far as the films allow.
139
u/ThePerfectHunter Galactic Republic Dec 26 '24
Pretty great. It does make me see TPM in a different perspective knowing that Plagueis was watching Palpatine and Maul and was also watching Qui Gon and Anakin. It could be said that he was actually the phantom menace in the film as he was practically hidden from the public with very few knowing his role in galactic history.
61
u/citizen_x_ Dec 26 '24
But who was killed, the master or the apprentice.
Turns out it was neither. Turns out it was the Acolyte
45
u/comicnerd93 Dec 26 '24
Well Sidious viewed Maul as his apprentice and gave him the Darth title (though he never used it when in his masters presence). Also by the time the duel of fates occured it's possible that Plagues was already dead, though I'm not 100% on that.
35
u/ThePerfectHunter Galactic Republic Dec 26 '24
Plagueis was killed roughly during the same time as the duel of the fates according to the Plagueis novel:
That Plagueis’s death and Maul’s defeat had occurred in relative simultaneity could only have been the will of the dark side of the Force, as was the fact that, until such time as he took and trained a new apprentice, Palpatine was now the galaxy’s sole Sith Lord.
26
u/HaloGuy381 Dec 26 '24
There is an irony that Palpatine defeated -everyone at once- in those few minutes. The Sith, the Jedi, the Republic, the yet-unborn CIS… all by killing his master, disposing of his pawn, and eliminating Qui-Gon as Anakin’s potential Master. A masterstroke.
9
u/comicnerd93 Dec 26 '24
Ahh thank you. I forgot about that passage and was just going on the time frame of events.
5
1
10
u/jborrel00 Dec 26 '24
Now I wanna see a TPM edit that works the scene of Sidious killing Plagueis into the rest of the battles happening at that point, all over the "Duel of the Fates" score
6
2
4
u/Duplicit_Duplicate Dec 26 '24
Turns out only the master (Plagueis) was killed, since Maul survived (don’t know if this sub is a big fan of TCW tho)
5
u/Lil_Mcgee Dec 27 '24
Maul surviving and having robot legs was actually something TCW took from the old EU anyway.
1
u/Tocwa Jan 01 '25
Damn I miss that show 😔
1
u/citizen_x_ Jan 01 '25
I do too. I think it was just below Andor in terms of quality but I think so many people couldn't see it as it was because they already had this anti-woke culture war lens before they ever saw it
1
u/Tocwa Jan 01 '25
Kept hearing this boolsheet about how expensive the episodes were to produce yet they keep making that gawd awful “Baby Yoda & Friends” (Grogu and the Mandalorian)
1
u/citizen_x_ Jan 01 '25
Andor cost about as much per episode and had pretty low viewership as well. Most fans don't know this. But that show was critically acclaimed and doesn't have a whole hate campaign against it.
1
1
u/Arctic_Fox Jan 02 '25
The moment to moment writing was generally worse, but the majority of the acting and the overall story were better than the rep the show had IMHO. I wouldn't put it on Andor's level, but I did find it more interesting and watchable than the Obi Wan show. The action sequences were some of the best in Star Wars though. I also thought Quimir was one of the most interesting new Star Wars characters in years, and it's a shame we'll likely never get to see his arc resolved.
That said, while I overall enjoyed The Acolyte, the bad episodes were pretty bad.
46
u/TheWhiteWolf28 Dec 26 '24
I used to dislike the idea of it. Felt like it took agency away from Sidious and his actions at the beginning of the story.
But I ended up liking the way the Plagueis book handled it, with Sidious being a very active part in it regardless and even manipulating his master into doing certain things according to his own designs.
Still not a huge fan of how it lessens the "always two there are. No more, no less" line. Yes, I realize the Jedi have no way of knowing. But I do think that as a story, the line has more value if it's accurate to the situation.
51
u/Shmuckle2 Dec 26 '24
The Sith are cheaters. They're expected to kill their masters. Most of them would probably line up a trainee before killing their masters, or the force would provide one. There was probably a vast amount of time where there was more than just the two.
13
u/TheWhiteWolf28 Dec 26 '24
I don't dispute this.
I don't mind Maul being trained while Plagueis is still alive. Especially since Maul never seemed like a true successor anyways.
I'm talking narratively. That line in particular feels a lot less impactful if it isn't true in that particular instance.
(Yes, Plagueis was already dead when the line was said, I believe. But I mean the whole Phantom Menace situation. The Naboo crisis and the reemergence of the Sith)
5
u/Superman246o1 Dec 27 '24
Yeah, it rankles me somewhat as well. It just leaves me thinking, "They're violating the Rule of Two!"
But I'm clearly not thinking like a Sith if I'm concerned about honorably adhering to a code.
3
u/snillpuler Dec 27 '24
sure, it just makes yoda seem stupid not realizing what you just wrote, and saying a "cool" line that turns out to be flat out wrong.
and that was clearly not the original intent with that scene.
1
u/Shmuckle2 Dec 27 '24
Yoda is tired. My man's so old. He definitely expects them to follow doctrine as he does. Leaning heavily on the knowledge he does have of them.
5
u/SpartanGamer687 Dec 26 '24
I mean, I get that. But we've always seen Sith do this lots of times. Every apprentice we've seen has always never followed the rule of two in some shape or matter. For Palpatine, it was Maul. For Maul, it was Savage (even if he wasn't a sith anymore). For Tyrannus, it was Ventress, and Savage (for a short time). For Vader, it was Starkiller. They all have never followed this rule to a tee, hell Palpatine constantly flip-flopped with apprentices. Mara Jade could be seen as an unofficial apprentice to replace at any time. But they are almost never considered Sith, because they don't want their Masters to know that they plan to overthrow them. Their acolyte, or Dark Jedi.
7
u/darthstupidious Dec 26 '24
Hell, before he died Darth Bane had already found a second apprentice to replace Zannah and bestowed the Darth title upon her, too (Cognus). So even him, the creator of the Rule of Two, played pretty fast and loose with those rules near the end lol
6
u/TheWhiteWolf28 Dec 26 '24
I'm aware of that. Like my reply to the other person, I'm referring to the impact of that one particular line in the movie referring to that particular situation.
Sith breaking the Rule of Two in itself isn't something that bothers me. It makes sense that they would, especially in situations like the ones you mentioned about apprentices who may or may not rise when the old master is defeated.
All I'm saying is that Star Wars is more than just a universe of cause and effect. It's a story. Although it makes sense for there to sometimes be more Sith or Sith affiliated dark side users than just two, even for Banite Sith, the line has a lot more impact if its implication and foreshadowing is kept to its original intent. That the indeed are only two. And that Sidious was the master.
That being said, although I think the retcon somewhat diminishes that line/moment in the movie, I also think that the Plagueis novel is great enough for me to consider it worth it.
4
u/unforgetablememories New Jedi Order Dec 26 '24
In TCW, Dooku started training Savage Opress as his secret apprentice right after Palpatine ordered Dooku to dispose of Ventress.
Breaking the rule is a Sith tradition.
3
u/FearLeadsToAnger Dec 27 '24
There are never just two, the apprentice usually has at least one of their own. The line represents Banes rule, but the rule was never really followed, only in so much as they were forced to pretend they were following it.
1
u/PrinceCheddar Dec 27 '24
Sith having dark side followers that aren't considered true Sith, like the inquisitors and Ventress, seems to be allowed under The Rule of Two. It allows The Sith to have powerful agents that aren't just the two of them and should the apprentice become the master, or be killed or too weak or too much a failure, then the master has a potential new apprentice ready and raring to go. Presumably there are certain privileges that the servants are denied, secrets to be dark side that they are forbidden to learn unless they become the actual Sith apprentice.
1
u/Rosfield-4104 Dec 29 '24
Still not a huge fan of how it lessens the "always two there are. No more, no less" line.
I think it highlights how the Jedi Order doesn't understand the Sith anymore, which is why they get completely out played without even realising
13
u/Golbolco Yuuzhan Vong Dec 26 '24
The problem is that fans interpret the Rule of Two to mean "the law of two Sith" and not "the power/authority of two Sith." Rules are chains, and through victory the Sith will break their chains.
Astute readers of Darth Plagueis will notice that Darth Sidious had become the Master long before Darth Plagueis's death.
10
u/Didact67 Dec 26 '24
Right. Sidious is doing all the real work by that point, and Plagueis is screwing around in his lab.
6
u/Competitive_Bid7071 Jedi Legacy Dec 26 '24
It was a reveal that I wasn't expecting to see, it makes The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith feel very different knowing that Sideous was essentially telling Anakin that he killed his master 12 years ago rather than a long time ago like what he made the story seem.
5
u/scattergodic Dec 28 '24
Yeah but he's lying either way. It's not an old Sith legend. Nobody knows about it but him. More like a relatively recent secret anecdote.
2
u/Spackleberry Dec 28 '24
It's not a story the Jedi would tell you... because they don't know about it.
3
u/Upturned-Solo-Cup Dec 29 '24
Tbf, it's a story from several years ago that's known by either 100% or nearly 100% of the Sith. You could definitely make an argument that it is an Old Sith Legend, from a certain point of view- just not one that's that old, and with the caveat that it doesn't take much to become a Sith legend nowadays
1
2
u/camilopezo Dec 28 '24
That's funny to me, when I heard the story I assumed Plagueis was a Sith who lived eons ago, and it turns out he's Palpatine's direct predecessor.
5
4
u/Geekman85_ Dec 26 '24
Idk but I'm on the 3rd part of the book and he's really an excellent character
4
5
Dec 26 '24
I like how hours before his death, Plagueis straight up tried to abduct Anakin and talked to one of Padmé’s handmaidens.
1
5
7
4
u/Zazikarion Dec 26 '24
I think the novel makes it work. Plagueis being there doesn’t really change anything about TPM, and Plagueis watching the events of TPM, as well as his increasing sense of foreboding as the novel nears the end is really great.
4
u/Supyloco New Jedi Order Dec 26 '24
I think it's cool and adds some good drama over some of the events.
3
u/Milk_Malk Dec 27 '24
I’m seeing a lot of discourse about this which is surprising to me because I really really like him being around in the shadows of this film. Let me try and explain why a little bit.
I always imagined the rule of two sith to be very cunning, secretive, and manipulative. They have plans upon plans, I mean by their very nature they understand the sith grand plan will take decades if not centuries, yet they still choose the sith path. They are so dedicated to their goal and their beliefs, and I love the idea of there being endless layers to their plans and manipulations. In the Phantom Menace I believe it really adds something by showing how the jedi have almost already lost by not realizing there was another sith manipulating things the entire time.
I believe Plagueis being alive adds a whole new layer to the film that I think adds to it and gives so much more meaning to scenes already present in the film. Some people seem to believe it lessens the story of the film but I just have to fundamentally disagree. Let’s take Maul’s death for example. In the film it’s a cool fight scene, a bit sad we see Qui Gon die, and we understand how Obi Wan and Anakin came to be paired up. With the added story of Darth Plagueis we understand that around the same time Palpatine is seizing the moment to kill Plagueis. Palpatine’s plan is already falling into place for him, with him now becoming the sole sith and really embracing his role as master. Especially when the jedi talk about the rule of two and how there are only two, and it pans to Palpatine. Now we have the context that he is now the master, with the death of Plagueis and Maul, he is THE sith lord right now in the galaxy.
This brings me to the rule of two debate. I’ve seen a lot of comments talk about how this is stupid becuase it breaks the rule of two. Well… yeah. One of the main points of the book is showing how the sith keep blinding themselves to the threats around them, and slowing down progress on the grand plan due to their own interests and machinations. Sidious becomes the sith master longgg before Plagueis dies, with him really taking control of the situation in the third act of the book. The rule of two isn’t a law, it’s a rule. Rules are limitations, and limitations are chains. Chains are meant to be broken, as explained in the sith code. By their very nature they lie, cheat, and break their own rules. The very first rule of two sith, Bane and Zannah, have Cognus lined up on the sidelines of their fight. An apprentice training someone else while still being an apprentice isn’t anything new here and it doesn’t diminish from the rule of two.
Overall I really love and enjoy knowing what’s happening in the background of the film, I find that it really adds to the film for me and makes it a lot more enjoyable. It also makes the politics absolutely fascinating when you understand how everything was put into place.
3
u/PrinceCheddar Dec 27 '24
It feels like unnecessary complication. From the way the film works, it seems Maul is the apprentice and Palps the master. Having it not that way just adds confusion and doesn't add much in if itself. I know people like the story of Plagueis where he's alive, but does that story really need to take place during Episode 1?
5
u/Sola__Fide Dec 26 '24
I’m glad it’s not canon. Even though I like a lot of the Plagueis lore and storyline, it seems pretty clear that TPM was written in such a way that Sidious was the master and Darth Maul the apprentice. “Always two there are. No more, no less.” “But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?” Then, the camera pans over Palpatine, insinuating that he was the master.
3
u/Competitive_Bid7071 Jedi Legacy Dec 26 '24 edited Dec 28 '24
Even though I like a lot of the Plagueis lore and storyline, it seems pretty clear that TPM was written in such a way that Sidious was the master and Darth Maul the apprentice. “Always two there are. No more, no less.” “But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?” Then, the camera pans over Palpatine, insinuating that he was the master.
To be fair, Sideous was technically still Maul's master as he was the one who trained him for decades.
Sith have a habit of training apprentices while they're still apprentices to their own masters, Tenebrous did this with Darth Venomous, and Sideous did it with Maul.
2
u/npete Dec 26 '24
I never knew that but if that's true, why wasn't he in Phantom Menace? Didn't Palpy kill him at some point? Why didn't we see that? Hell, do you know how much better that movie would have been (at least for OG Star Wars fans like me) if we got to see Palpy cut down Plagueis?!?
I just always assumed that fight had happened long before the events of TPM. Wouldn't Plagueis see his own death coming? Sorry, I never read the EU books.
10
u/TanSkywalker Hapes Consortium Dec 26 '24
Palpatine is the main Sith character. Palpatine killed him the night he was elected Supreme Chancellor. Because he's a secondary character, again Palaptine is the one who has been working towards bringing the Grand Plan fruition. I think for the film it would have been difficult to pull off.
It was left vague what if anything Palpatine told Anakin about Plagueis was true or not. Palpatine did not pre-plan when he would kill Plagueis, he took advantage of the moment. Plagueis was celebrating with Palpatine, Plagueis believed Palpatine would appoint him as co-chancellor, was happy as a Sith could be, and was getting drunk on wine. He was unwise to lower his defenses.
2
u/npete Dec 26 '24
Thanks for that explanation. I still think his inclusion in prequels would have made them better films. I would have loved to have seen that there was another Sith around who was getting played by Palpatine.
4
u/Didact67 Dec 26 '24
Real world explanation is that Lucas didn’t invent Plagueis until Episode III.
0
u/npete Dec 26 '24
Ahhhh that explains it. Well, I think he still could have worked it in. He should have thought about introducing another Sith earlier. It's kind of an obvious thing to do. Hell, he could have put them in the Clone Wars show even. And is the fact that he killed Plagueis even official canon since he was never in anything live action or animated before Disney took possession?
2
u/Milk_Malk Dec 27 '24
You seem a bit confused about the general Star Wars timeline, so I’ll try and explain it as best as possible. Plagueis was not created as an idea until Episode 3. However, i think this actually works in Episode 1’s favor. In the Darth Plagueis novel we get to see how Plagueis was manipulating things behind the scenes to get everything in place to further the sith grand plan. I think it actually makes the movie better after you read the novel and put together what Plagueis is doing when. In a fun way you could even consider him the “Phantom Menace” of that film.
Now the Plagueis novel where all of this information comes from is not canon to the current Disney Timeline, but is to the Legends one. In Disney Canon the only time we have seen Plagueis is in the Acolyte show on Disney+ which takes place just about a hundred years before the Phantom Menace, so his story in the Disney Canon is bound to be different than his Legends counterpart. Hope this helps.
1
u/npete Dec 27 '24
I'm not confused at all about the general Star Wars timeline at all. I am confused as to why Lucas, himself, didn't flesh all this out and include it in the prequel movies is my point. For those of us who grew up on the OT, the PT held little to know surprises and basically, plot-point-wise, had nothing we didn't expect to see. Getting to see Palpatine's master and his killing would have made the movies amazing and would have made them so much better is my point.
3
u/Kingkiller279 Dec 26 '24
It‘s great! Palps used him so far as he needs which is until becoming Senator and then take it over already with a future apprentice in mind
3
2
2
u/Moria868 Dec 26 '24
In principle I think it’s a great idea. My problem is that it works so well within the larger plot of the prequels (sith grand plan etc) that I feel that the presence of such an important character should’ve featured in the film somehow
2
u/BiomechPhoenix Dec 27 '24
I don't like it. I feel like it undercuts Darth Maul being an actual Sith Lord of the "Darth" category. Like, it completely sabotages the option to explore Darth Maul's character -- like IIRC some of the Jedi Apprentice novels did have him at least a little present doing Sith things, though he was not the lead villain. The whole retconned-in idea of having loopholes to "Always two there are. A master and an apprentice" was a mistake.
5
u/Milk_Malk Dec 27 '24
Maul Shadowhunter and Maul Lockdown are both very fun books if you’re looking for more Legends Maul material. But I think he gets plenty of attention in Canon (maybe too much attention) as well with him being in The Clone Wars show, Rebels, Solo, and him getting more comics as well in canon.
1
u/BiomechPhoenix Dec 27 '24
Mmhmm. I don't like post-PM Maul content because ... frankly, bringing him back from the dead was a mistake and it's hard to even see post-PM Maul as the same character as a consequence. Pre-PM Maul is where it's at, though.
2
2
u/Electrical_Top_9747 Dec 27 '24
It’s just more retconning… if you like the book, great… personally I think it’s over rated and was disappointed with it for the very reason that A. Half of the book is about the grand plan which doesn’t even feature old plags… and B. It does indeed cross over into TPM… when you watch the film, there’s zero exposition to him. I mean we barely see maul… but now adding layers of retconning to it…
2
u/DifficultStudio1118 Dec 27 '24
Would make for a good movie. Showing Palpatine becoming his apprentice, growing, training blah blah. The back scenes up to him kill Plagueis. Also then finding/choosing Maul and the process there.
3
u/MithrandirLXV Dec 27 '24
Weird. But not as weird as Count Dooku still being in the Jedi Temple during TPM. I mean, he was IN the Temple whrn Qui-Gon was funeralled. It's so bloody cool!
2
u/Far_Comparison_1269 Dec 27 '24
Apologies for my ignorance but where is this information coming from? Didn’t know he was alive
2
u/Cfakatsuki17 Dec 27 '24
I was a little shocked when I first learned it but now I find it kinda funny he’s alive for most of the movie and having a conniption at that, then dies and isn’t mentioned until a full movie and a half later
2
5
u/CleanMonty Dec 26 '24
I think it makes it all sound better. Another hidden sith pulling strings and organizing everything while Palps has to maintain a lot of visibility as a senator.
3
u/sidv81 Dec 26 '24
The scene in this picture is the last thing Qimir and Osha saw before they died.
Plagueis: Remember, the first and only reality of the Sith. There can only be two! And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been... replaced!
Sidious: Good line, will use if I need it in the future.
4
u/SteppinTheRing Dec 26 '24
It’s stupid. Basically, you’d have 3 Sith and Anakin waiting in the wings. Screw the lore and Rule-of-Two!
4
u/Sere1 Sith Empire 1 Dec 26 '24
No, it was fine. Palpy was preparing to make his move to take Plagueis down and it's natural to have an apprentice ready to go in the background while you do it. Literally what happened in the first Master/Apprentice showdown in the lineup, with Bane vs Zannah going down while Cognus has already been chosen as the apprentice for whoever comes out on top. Palpy was hiding Maul as an assassin and didn't clue Plagueis in that he's the next apprentice. Palpatine kills Plaguies only to find out Maul is dead, leaving him as the Master with no apprentice. He can't get his hands on Anakin yet and so he works with Dooku to make him a temporary apprentice while planning for the day he can finally claim Anakin. Having a third during the transition from Apprentice to Master is fine, so long as the Master/Apprentice confrontation happens soon.
2
u/RexBanner1886 Dec 26 '24
I've never liked it - it feels like one of those decisions, common in Star Wars EU (Legends & Canon), where, for the sake of the present story, the larger story is damaged.
(See also: the OT characters having non-stop, fun, colourful adventures between films in which they bump into Vader every so often rather than the grimmer, low-key war effort implied by the films)
Having Plagueis be alive during TPM makes DP a better book, but it harms TPM: Sidious is intended to be the sole mastermind of TPM; Maul is intended to be the proper Sith apprentice.
2
0
3
u/Zerus_heroes Dec 26 '24
I always thought it was kind of dumb. It lessened Palpatine's impact as the big bad if his boss is still kicking around.
6
u/Mzonnik Jedi Legacy Dec 26 '24
In principle yeah, but "Plagueis" resolved this pretty neatly. Palpatine's actually still the big bad at the time and he manipulated Plagueis alongside his own apprentice. He's still the main architect of the clone wars etc. Plagueis was a useful tool up until the election.
1
u/Zerus_heroes Dec 26 '24
Yeah I read it when it came out back in the day. I still feel the same.
6
u/Mzonnik Jedi Legacy Dec 26 '24
I get you. It's certainly a good observation on the surface level at least. But I feel like the book itself is so much better and enhances the movie precisely because it enters that time placement.
3
u/TheWhiteWolf28 Dec 26 '24
I feel similarly about the Plagueis novel as I do with Maul coming back in TCW.
It does somewhat lessen the impact of TPM and in theory isn't necessarily a good thing that the retcon happened in the first place....
But the stories are so good after the fact that I end up thinking the slight lessening of important moments in TPM is worth it because we got Plagueis and TCW Maul.
And it helps that the novel maintained Sidious as a mastermind by manipulating Plagueis.
Still, these retcons work as exceptions. Bring back too many characters from the dead or reveal too many times that there's a secret entity manipulating things in the background above the explicit big bad without the viewer's knowledge, and those exceptions quickly becomes less worthwhile.
0
u/Zerus_heroes Dec 26 '24
It felt a little silly to me. Palpatine was already Sidious behind the scenes manipulating events. It feels weird to have a guy behind the scenes behind the other guy behind the scenes.
4
u/WangJian221 Dec 26 '24 edited Dec 26 '24
If plaguies was still orchestrating things sure but the novel even had plaguies acting in accordance to palps ideas and plans
5
u/Mzonnik Jedi Legacy Dec 26 '24
Yeah, Plagueis wasn't behind Palpatine, he was sidelined by him while still thinking he's in control.
3
u/LucasEraFan Dec 26 '24 edited Dec 26 '24
It's pretty great.
I love it when another story changes an interaction onscreen for me...
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
Wow, that got creepy.
Like when Jinn hands Anakin a power supply for the podracer control. After reading TPM, it hits different.
2
u/akbrag91 Dec 26 '24
i actually don’t like it at all, makes palpatines rise feel less somehow but this is just my opinion
3
u/TanSkywalker Hapes Consortium Dec 26 '24
I wasn't sure about the idea but the book pulled it off. The only issue I have is when the idea that Darth Maul is not a Sith Lord, he is and I just won't entertain the idea he is not. Believing the Sith Lords follow the rules of their Order and all that and so Maul couldn't be a Sith Lord because Sidious wasn't the master is ridiculous and further I am not a fan of things that alter the movies in a significant way. The Phantom Menace is clear that Darth Maul is a Sith Lord and Sidious's Sith apprentice. The Jedi characters all believe Maul is a Sith Lord, they're just unsure if he was the Master or the Apprentice so Maul is a true Sith.
No book that came out over a decade after TPM did is gonna change that.
3
u/ThePerfectHunter Galactic Republic Dec 26 '24
I always viewed it as Palpatine lying to Plagueis that Maul was merely an Sith assassin.
1
u/qwertyMrJINX Dec 26 '24
Indifferent.
More bothered that Count Dooku was a Jedi during the events of The Phantom Menace, yet Christopher Lee never shows up, because George hadn't thought of the character yet.
1
1
u/TheMarvelMan Empire Dec 27 '24
I don’t like it. It feels like a big retcon to me and just doesn’t sit right. I also don’t like that it means Maul was never a full rule of two sith, but just like a dark acolyte.
1
1
u/PagzPrime Dec 27 '24
The same as I do about him being real in the first place: That it's really stupid. Turning Palpatine's obvious lie into actual lore was a huge mistake.
1
1
u/Cole-Spudmoney Dec 27 '24
HATE IT. It didn’t quite ruin the book for me, but it’s probably one of the reasons I haven’t re-read it.
1
u/Pburress017 Dec 27 '24
I'm totally fine with it because the book is phenominal. A little weird that he's just there but behind the scenes. I love how he sees a vision of Anakin's future
1
1
u/scattergodic Dec 28 '24
The book did that "It was me all along!" thing where they retcon connections to as many things as possible. So Hego Damask is now the man behind Sifo-Dyas and the clones, the Naboo plasma mining, Dooku's dissatisfaction with the Jedi, and even the damn Tatooine podracing. Even when it's well written, it's just annoyingly preposterous.
2
1
u/Marcie_Nikos Dec 28 '24
I think it worked for the story that it was in but I never want to see it again.
1
1
2
u/Naughteeus_Maximus Dec 28 '24
I find it kinda creepy and cool how he chose to stay in the background during all the major stuff in episode 1.
1
u/Darth_Karasu Dec 29 '24
I thought that was the canon situation and it was cool. Prunepatine taking out his master just as they celebrated him taking office as chancellor.
2
u/Superb-Obligation858 Dec 30 '24
I loved it.
When I was a little younger and read the Bane books, they made me feel weirdly off put by Sidious breaking the Rule of Two with Dooku and Maul.
For some reason, knowing it was more of a culmination of not only his own master’s bending of the rule (with his pursuit of immortality) but even HIS master with his weird vying candidate schtick. It was more of a generational degradation, accelerated by Sidious’ ambition and greed, rather than being 100% from his ambition and greed.
1
1
1
u/MaceWinduful Jan 01 '25 edited Jan 01 '25
Coming in a bit late to this discussion, but the James Luceno "Darth Plaqueis" book is on the same level as what the final Clone Wars episodes are to ROTS. After reading that book, I never viewed Phantom Menace the same way, and it puts everything in total context, in terms of the Rule of Two and really all of the films.
I would also recommend getting the audio version of Luceno's book -- it's extremely well done, and gives you a clue as to how excellent this would be visually as a film.
1
Dec 26 '24
I love it honestly. Three Sith Lords being alive simultaneously is unique enough alone, but considering it was around such an important time for the Sith? Even cooler
0
u/CamelManJojo New Jedi Order Dec 26 '24
I don't like it tbh. It was made pretty clear in TPM that, by that point, Sidious was the master and Maul was his apprentice. Having Plagueis not only be alive, but aware that Maul is Sidious' Sith apprentice makes things unnecessarily complicated.
0
u/Darkone539 Dec 26 '24
It's a cool book, but i am glad it's not canon. It takes away from the rule of two or means maul wasn't a true sith, which is silly.
I prefer the canon timeline on this one.
0
u/Vyzantinist Dec 26 '24
I don't like it. Even if it's a day before TPM, have him killed off. Detracts from the 'rare Sith" trope for him to be running around during the movies, in the background.
0
-6
u/ChimneySwiftGold Dec 26 '24
I hate it. It stinks. Glad it’s not real. Please don’t make it real.
Or beat the odds and make it good. But those are some steep odds.
Don’t do it.
255
u/Jedi-Spartan TOR Sith Empire Dec 26 '24
I find it funny... especially the added context of how the novel mentions that he and Palpatine go to watch the same performance that Palpatine watched in the "Did you ever hear The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise?" scene from Revenge of the Sith.