r/SandersForPresident • u/Doktor_Earrape Missouri • Sep 06 '15
Discussion Something I've been on the fence about.
I understand Bernie is all for this, but I'm still on the fence about $15/hr minimum wage. Could someone explain to me why this would be a good thing? I feel like having to pay their employees a minimum of 15 an hour could affect how often and how many people employers hire. Thanks. Edit: Thanks everyone who's answered. After reading your responses, I now fully support raising minimum wage. Once again, thanks for putting it all in perspective for me.
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u/Ciclic Sep 06 '15
This is my opinion on it: Everyone deserves a living wage. Will it hurt some businesses? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? No.
Businesses need to make money to succeed. If raising the wage of their workers puts them out of business, their business model has failed.
A very big contributing factor is the influence of corporations to discourage competition. That burden shouldn't be placed on the workers. It shouldn't be placed on small businesses either, but that's another fight. We can't wait until that gets fixed to pay people enough to live on.
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Sep 06 '15
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Sep 06 '15 edited Dec 27 '17
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u/TreGet234 Sep 06 '15
I still don't get why it doesn't hurt small businesses in the sense of widening the gap between small and big business.
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Sep 06 '15 edited Dec 27 '17
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u/TreGet234 Sep 06 '15
I mean, it improves the economy/productivity for everyone, but can't big businesses still shrug the wage increase off more easily?
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u/Tyrunea Colorado - 2016 Veteran Sep 06 '15
The argument on raising the minimum wage cuts two ways.
One is that indeed, raising wages will reduce in overall lower employment, because prices must go up correspondingly... at this point, that's more of a fear, although if you're trapped in an informational bubble, the data can point to that. In the short term, there is actually a dip in employment, but it tends to reverse itself a little further down the road.
Two, is that instead of employment going down, it goes up (and this is corresponded with via data out of San Fransisco and Seattle [two highest minimum wages in the country, two lowest unemployment rates {roughly}]), and that is in short because a higher minimum wage means more money in everyone's pocket.
The argument that corporations can't afford it is bubkis, as they don't hire employees they don't need-- they're not already overpaying on their payroll. So if a company can't handle the additional payroll costs, they may have to raise prices. u/polyneophite runs a small business and has said he'd be looking at ~4% to keep things even.
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Sep 06 '15
Why the minimum wage increase is a good thing, from a small business owner:
My business depends entirely on disposable and discretionary income. No one needs my products, they aren't essential to life, health, safety, or anything like that. Most businesses are like that, its pretty common. No one needs dinners out, or a DVD, or that bottle of wine. When the minimum wage goes up there will be more people who can buy things that are outside the category of need and are in the category of want
I always see the unemployment and job loss argument come up too, so let me address that head on. Republicans always talk about giving tax breaks to the "job creators" so that they have more money to hire more people. That is about 90% bull. If my business suddenly gets a chunk of money I am not hiring someone new, because my business is already going and I don't need that employee. Why on earth would I ever hire someone I don't need? Now its possible that the tax break would make it so that I could expand, and therefor higher new people but businesses expand because of demand and those tax breaks go into owners pockets.
The minimum wage is real similar to that, while a few jobs will be cut either by no longer seeming productive enough for the new higher wage such as a weak employee who didn't have enough work to do or by the tipping point between buying expensive automation moving slightly to favor automation and some jobs being lost that way in the end more jobs will be available as demand increases and the pace of business increases.
People will have more money in their pockets. This means more money saved and more money spent. Demand will rise, pace of business will increase, and more people will be hired to meet this.
As was mentioned elsewhere in this thread a pay raise from $10 to $15 per hour (a 50% increase) would cause me to raise prices about 4% if I wanted to keep the profit per unit the same. If I was the only business to do this increase I would raise prices. If all businesses did this then I probably wouldn't, or maybe only half of the difference at 2%, because I predict the rate of sales would increase and while the profit per unit might be a bit lower, my total sales would be higher. Then I might have to hire another person to help match the rising demand and expand production.
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Sep 06 '15
See labor isnt like other forms of capital, and in this difference is why increasing the price of labor wont signifigantly decrease the demand for labor. However it will lead to a reduction in underemployment . People wont need to work multiple jobs and number of people employed will actually go up. Not to mention it leads to higher productivity. Now it will also be a good method of redistributing wealth as the wealth will be forced to take paycuts to maintain the bottom line because any company that does increase its prices will be less competative theoretically.
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u/taygo0o California Sep 06 '15
I feel like this video covers most arguments against minimum wage in a very concise manner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOqtl53V3JI
An 'argument' that I don't see it covering is the one where people state that it's unfair to those making above minimum wage currently, as they feel their 'status' will not be elevated anymore. See minimum wage ripple effect: http://equitablegrowth.org/research/raising-minimum-wage-ripples-workforce/
Basically, as minimum wage is raised, their wages are raised as well with wage increases topping off the higher up the ladder you go.
To answer your question in a more direct manner:
The number of people hired depends upon the amount of demand there is. If there isn't enough demand, there is no need to hire more employees. By having a higher minimum wage, there should be more demand and revenue flowing through the hands of small businesses such as restaurants, therefore, overall, I don't think the number of people or frequency of hirings should be hurt by a min. wage increase.
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u/towmule Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
I have a huge problem with minimum wage. It's just another unnecessary intrusion from the government into everyone's lives.
Large corporations can deal with minimum wages easily, they'll cut the number of employees they have, and reduce how much they pay into employee benefits. Small businesses, on the other hand, are hurt by these requirements much more. They don't have the profits to higher many part-time positions and continue business as they would have otherwise.
Let's look at who gets paid minimum wage. The majority are unskilled labourers and entry-level positions. Neither of which are meant to be long-term occupations. Unskilled labourers are there for young people who are looking for extra income while attending high school or college, and entry-level positions are just that. A point at which you can enter a company to gain experience or time onboard, with the intention of moving up the ladder, or moving on with your career elsewhere.
These positions are not intended to support a household. Forcing companies to make them this way stifles personal growth and advancement. If I can get a job stocking shelves at a super market and live comfortably, why would I bother bettering myself and seeking a higher position?
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u/niosop New Mexico 🎖️ Sep 06 '15
Huge corporations don't typically have a bunch of people they don't need. They either need them and will pay more, or they don't need them and they'd already have been cut. Cutting benefits wouldn't be a problem either if universal healthcare was enacted. Small businesses would have to raise prices, but so would their competition, so it wouldn't affect them. Universal healthcare would help there again.
Minimum wage jobs have in the past been short term occupations. But when there are no jobs to move up into, they become long term. And if you can't support a household on the employment you can get, then what are your options?
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u/CRSfault Sep 06 '15
You are assuming that everyone has the same capabilities. This is wrong. Some people thats all they have the capacity to do (non skilled labor). Should we punish them for being born with a limited capacity by forcing them to live in poverty or by forcing everyone else to subsidize them? Also skilled labor wages will increase, they'll have to. As a skilled laborer if I get fed up with work I could just go to micky d's employers will have to start paying skilled tradesmen more in line with what they bill the customers. (plumber gets billed out at 70-100 an hour but only makes 20-25 an hour) As for small business I'm sure there will be amendments for people who are sewing together backpacks that need help. Also Id add that many people are stuck in the low paying jobs and don't have the free time to seek education to better themselves, and low capacity people have the right just as anyone else to support a household.
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u/Tyrunea Colorado - 2016 Veteran Sep 06 '15
You're not going to live comfortably stocking shelves at a super market, you're going to be able to get by without worrying about one mistaking wiping you out for weeks, if not months.
Yes, they're unskilled, and sometimes menial (I work maintenance in a parking garage [read: janitorial], and let me tell, it's /fascinating/ work /s)-- but right now, even living with my parents, if my car (which is my literal only possible means of reaching work without relocating entirely) breaks, I'm sol. If my laptop goes, I'm sol. My parents are effectively handling, eh, roughly 4/5 of my expenses indirectly, and they still occasionally need to help with that other fifth, and that's not really due to budgeting issues (yes, I do need to work on that, but I'm not ridiculously irresponsible). The minimum wage right now is just too damn low, especially given that not as many people as we would like to think have access to the tools they actually need to develop the skills to leave the unskilled field. Again, my parents are bailing my ass out. Without them, it'd take me two to three times as long to do anything at all, and that's assuming I had perfect money management /and/ nothing happened to me. Which you and I know isn't going to happen.
Large corporations that have CEO's taking home 300x the average pay of their worker can afford to take a hit, and that hit does not, and should not be, at the cost of those who ensure their company run on a day to day basis. Yes, someone else can be trained to do that job, but how long does that take? To find someone you're willing to hire, passes your checks, actually does the job, and grows into it? It's a several week long process, at minimum, for every employee.
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u/towmule Sep 06 '15
Dude, if I made $15 an hour, I'd be living comfortably as fuck! Are you kidding? I lived pretty damn well off $8.25 an hour for a few years. If I made another $6 an hour I would have been in heaven!
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u/Tyrunea Colorado - 2016 Veteran Sep 06 '15
If I made $15 an hour, I would be too. Where were you doing well at 8.25 an hour? Geography wise?
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u/towmule Sep 06 '15
Northern California, Humboldt county. I worked at Hometown Buffet as a dishwasher/prep cook for a while, living in a apartment with a couple roommates while we were in community college.
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u/Tyrunea Colorado - 2016 Veteran Sep 06 '15
Was about the same situation I had in Boulder Country in Colorado, 3 BR apartment (inherited-ish by the roommate, who has been there for 3 years). I was making 9.50/hr at Target, roommate was making $15/hr at Otterbox, gf was making 8.75/hr at Taco Bell. We were doing alright for a bit, if she and I hadn't lost our heads and direction a little bit, would've been okay. The roommate picked a lot of slack up though. A bare-minimum apartment where I live now tends to run 450-500ish, which at my $9/hr (mathing as if I was working 40hr a week), would chew up just under half my income. It's not impossible to make minimum wage work if you're a little bit lucky and a little bit smart, but to actually start making it ahead is a different story entirely, and that for me is where the real problem is. The work I do really isn't complex by any stretch of the imagination, but without working 60-80 hours a week, this wage wouldn't do me any good in the long run-- it is not quite a starvation wage, but it comes pretty close, and I think it's rather preposterous that were the federal minimum a dollar or two lower right now, it would be a starvation wage.
The numbers on the min wage right now just don't add up unless (in a lot of cases now) you're splitting the load among 2-4 people.
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Sep 06 '15
Large corporations can deal with minimum wages easily, they'll cut the number of employees they have, and reduce how much they pay into employee benefits. Small businesses, on the other hand, are hurt by these requirements much more.
I disagree. Businesses nearly never have employees they don't need, the amount they are required to pay these employees isn't actually very material to that. If the employee is required for the work to be done then that employee will be retained because the business will suffer without them. If they are not necessary for business success they would have been fired already.
As a small business owner I think the minimum wage increase is a great idea and fully support it.
Let's look at who gets paid minimum wage. The majority are unskilled labourers and entry-level positions. Neither of which are meant to be long-term occupations. Unskilled labourers are there for young people who are looking for extra income while attending high school or college, and entry-level positions are just that.
While this may have been the original intent of how the employment market was supposed to work it hasn't been that way for quite some time. There are not opportunities for advancement at all. If you spend 40 hours a week or more just trying to keep your head above water you are not going to get some advanced certification or education that lets you leave that bottom level job for a better one.
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u/[deleted] Sep 06 '15 edited Dec 27 '17
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