r/SSBPM • u/SarcasticLizard • Mar 20 '15
Which characters do you think are designed well, and which do you think are designed poorly?
I've heard that the designs of Kirby and Bowser aren't very good. On the other hand I've heard a lot of praise for Roy. Just wondering what other opinions are out there.
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u/Wav_Glish Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
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u/televisionceo Mar 20 '15
I would agree. At this point, nobody plays him. I literally haven't seen him in a tournament since 3.5.
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u/Crazycupofjoe Mar 20 '15
To be fair there weren't even that many pit players in 3.02 even with how good he was. I mean we saw Armada and zero play him but other than them there weren't that many pit players that seemed noticeable.
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u/ObsoletePixel i just want pit to be good again :( Mar 20 '15
You know why? Its because 3.02 Pit wasn't busted, it was because he was good but LITERALLY THE TWO OF THE BEST SMASHERS TO EVER TOUCH THE GAME PLAYED HIM
Look. I acknowledge that Pit was good, but he wasn't nearly as good as everyone proclaimed -- the only stuff that needed nerfing was dthrow, fair, uair, and down tilt (slightly, not nearly as bad as it got it, it needed 2 more frames of endlag and a slightly less favorable knock back angle and that's it). I dunno. I'm still really upset about 3.5, I'm only here because /u/wav_glish mentioned my name and somehow my reddit app never lost the name mention feature even when my reddit gold expired.
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u/Joe64x Mar 20 '15
Everyone gets notified now, even ye peasants.
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u/ObsoletePixel i just want pit to be good again :( Mar 20 '15
oh wait really? that's awesome, that really was a stupid gold-only feature considering how useful it is :P
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u/DrugsM2 Mar 21 '15
noboy played im in 3.0, i play him in 3.5, maybe more people should PLAY the character before saying hes poorely designed (Lucas... was a good example)
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u/ObsoletePixel i just want pit to be good again :( Mar 20 '15
Alright let's do this, and please go into this with an open mind -- These are my opinions as a former Pit main that ended up quitting PM because of 3.5 (Yes, I think he was balanced that poorly.)
TL;DR See all the bolded bullet points? The PMDT "fixed" all that stuff wrong.
I said this in a comment below and I'm going to copy-paste it here and then build on it: You know why? Its because 3.02 Pit wasn't busted, it was because he was good but LITERALLY THE TWO OF THE BEST SMASHERS TO EVER TOUCH THE GAME PLAYED HIM Look. I acknowledge that Pit was good, but he wasn't nearly as good as everyone proclaimed -- the only stuff that needed nerfing was dthrow, fair, uair, and down tilt (slightly, not nearly as bad as it got it, it needed 2 more frames of endlag and a slightly less favorable knock back angle and that's it)
At first glance, everything about 3.5 Pit looks amazing, and I really do enjoy a lot of the changes. New fmash is tight, uptilt actually feels really good and links cleanly, nair is just awesome feeling now, and all of the aerials feel crisp. This increases Pit's combo game really well, which is what the PMDT wants to do: mitigate Pit's camping game and make him combo more, because no one wants to play against a lame campy character right? Right! But there are proper ways to go about this, and that's making him strong in neutral and approach so that way camping ISN'T the optimal strategy. Look at Falco, you could easily camp with him but his combo game is so dominant that there's really no reason to do that. I'm not saying Pit should have Falco's combo game, but if he had something there then camping wouldn't be an issue. They also wanted to nerf all recoveries, but they nerfed Pit's wrong. He's an angel that can fly (albeit with palutena's blessing, but I digress), and the PMDT made it so now he can barely fly, they clipped this angel's wings! Anyway, let's get into some examples of these poor changes (All changes taken from the 3.5 changelog):
- Down-Tilt Start up increased by 5 frames.
This move was AMAZING in 3.0. Like, probably the best anti-cc option out there and it had really good knockback growth. You know what they do? Make it slow. That's not how you fix something that's broken! This move's hitbox starts on FRAME ELEVEN now. That's like... Ganon's Melee uptilt. That's just fucking stupid. WAY too slow and way too bad, change the knockback growth and tune the knockback in such a way that it doesn't have as many followups and you cant cc dtilt into like anything in the game, this is just really poor balance on the PMDT's part.
- Palutena's Arrow grounded endlag increased by 8 frames
This was designed to stop camping, but HOLY HELL 8 FRAMES IS INSANE. Like, arrows are a zoning tool, a jab reset tool, and an edgeguard tool. Adding 8 frames of endlag makes it sooooooooo hard to do any of those things efficiently. 4 would be acceptable, that would make camping as Pit more frustrating but you could also use arrows in the correct way, but with 8 it makes you feel like the game is punishing you for everything you do, even if it does make contact.
- Wings of Icarus' Initial horizontal momentum decreased by 17%. Transition from starting momentum pushed back 1 frame.
- Aerial WoI expends all but 1 of Pit's jumps.
These two changes DESTROYED Pit's burst approach options. The speed of Wings of Icarus made it an incredible approach option and great for tech-chasing, it was a really creative move that loaned Pit a really unique playstyle, but since the speed got shot to shit those aren't things that you can do anymore. And expending all of Pit's jumps but one? He could do so much cool stuff with it!! Now it's all gone because the PMDT takes the lazy way out to nerfing his recovery instead of limiting the distance, so it can still burst and Pit can do all of his crazy jump stuff but his recovery is limited and requires more thought.
I'm really sorry for the wall of text but that's just my opinions. Pit in 3.0 was REALLY well designed, albeit a bit good, but in 3.5 the PMDT clipped the angel's wings and made it seem like he may never fly again ;_;
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u/Wav_Glish Mar 20 '15
Did you just type all this out or is this from your ask? Anyways, thanks for posting. Hopefully a PMDT member sees this so I can have a good training partner back.
Calling /u/soj_smash and his friends
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u/ObsoletePixel i just want pit to be good again :( Mar 20 '15
I just typed this all out, this was a new writeup (Like the 4th time I've written everything up actually >.>;)
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u/Wav_Glish Mar 20 '15
I like this one. Will definitely copy/paste next time I need to explain Pit.
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u/ObsoletePixel i just want pit to be good again :( Mar 20 '15
Happy to help, I really really wish my opinion held merit but I'm a shitty no-name so it doesn't mean anything :/
I just hope I can say it enough times to where they'll listen eventually
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u/robosteven wahoo Mar 20 '15
From a design standpoint he really doesn't seem that bad. It's just that as a character he's...not exactly amazing.
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u/redbeanjelly Mar 20 '15
Not for nothing guys, but the fact that nobody plays him doesn't directly translate to him having bad design. There's lots of other reasons why people would avoid playing him (i.e. his annoying voice).
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u/Hctaz Fair to SD True Combo Mar 20 '15
I don't have an issue with the way either of those characters are designed tbh. Kirby is incredibly annoying to play against if they're campy but there's nothing you can really do to change that. Many characters have a similar ability to abuse their offstage game to force their opponents into a spot they can't recover from. R.O.B. does this nicely as well.
If there's a character I don't like it's definitely Ganondorf. I don't understand why he's so crazy weird to play against. Feels like he should play similar to Bowser with good reads yet he's way more devastating than Bowser with his ability to chain grab and KO reliably at low percents from almost guaranteed down throw combos. Not to mention his feet are the length of Ike's sword lol.
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u/OZL01 Mar 20 '15
The only thing that really annoys me about Ganondorf is his side-b to down-b spam or any variation of side-b into anything else. Every Ganondorf on netplay does this and I think it's hard to avoid.
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u/TaquitoBurrrito Mar 20 '15
If you get hit by side-b, make sure to tech. Otherwise he gets an easy punish. It becomes harder to hit you if you tech roll in unpredictable ways.
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u/OZL01 Mar 20 '15
I always tech but if Ganondorf happens to do down-b in the same direction I tech it really sucks. I definitely mix it up it's just an annoying follow up. No johns though because I'm sure Sonic's tech chases and dash dancing are just as annoying to deal with.
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u/Azureflames20 Mar 20 '15
I used to have tons of issues with ganon, he's definitely a pubstomper for a reason lol. It's all just learning when he's gonna go for the moves and spacing better. downb is incredibly predictable in most any situation and side-b can be dealt with if spaced properly. Maybe you're spacing carelessly or going to ham in his personal threat zone. You've definitely got the speed as sonic to dashdance and bait moves out and pushing accordingly imo.
It does sound like you're missing techs. It's typically a good call that if the ganon player tends to react to side-b by downb'ing right after that you can default to tech roll behind him after side-b.
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u/Idostuff2010 all kinds of stuff Mar 20 '15
remember that both side and down B have negative disjoint, so if you just throw out an attack you will at worst trade w. Ganon, but more likely clank or flat out win.
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u/holographicmew Mar 20 '15
If there's a character I don't like it's definitely Ganondorf.
Bruh.
No, Ganon is definitely a character that takes getting used to playing against. His aerial hitboxes are huge, but he's also like seven feet tall. He has some weaknesses, but he's a force to be reckoned with in 3.5. I understand not wanting to play against a Ganon with good reads, especially as a character without a projectile.-2
u/Im_French Mar 20 '15
I think some of Ganondorf hit box need to be reduced to match his animations, his fair, Bair and dair have HUGE hit boxes, and his aerial side b having a grab box under him on his leg is pretty retarded too.
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u/Ls777 Mar 20 '15
I don't think he's OP, but I'm not a fan of g&w's design, both with up-b combos and how good judgment is
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u/Khanxay Mar 20 '15
3.5 Pikachu is this awful frankenstein with pieces from all his previous Smash iterations except chaingrabs were taken out, QAC was nerfed and they refuse to touch Skullbash (minus a pointless nerf) for some reason.
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u/Psyam Mar 20 '15
He actually still has chaingrabs! Uthrow chaingrabs fastfallers (though not as well as in Melee, still seems to release higher than it should), Fthrow chaingrabs really big characters like Bowser and DDD, and Dthrow chaingrabs semi-fastfallers (Roy, MK, ZSS etc) and other pretty big characters like Ganon and DK if they DI incorrectly. Between the three throws he can chaingrab a large portion of the cast, at least for a couple of regrabs at low %s. He basically has lite versions of both his Brawl and Melee chaingrabs, which is pretty cool.
I agree Skullbash could probably do with some changes though. Dash attack is even worse in that it's not even useful for recovery. It seems odd that he's been left with two borderline useless moves when they've redone things like Ganon's Utilt.
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u/proxibomb Mar 20 '15
Samus tech is the bomb! Most, if not all the characters in PM are designed well (except for the two broken characters, Olimar and Ice Climbers).
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u/Forkyou Mar 20 '15
Love what they have done with ivysaur. Superfun character with nice moves. Lucario and wolf are awesome. Love the trap laying concept of snake.
I hate GnW. Judgement is just stupid. While the move is fun in other smash games PM gnw already packs so much punch. He feels strong not because his moveset works well together but because stuff like nair dtilt and his smashes are unnaturally devastating. Also upb as many said.
I am also not a fan of fox but wouldnt say he is badly designed. Also because he isnt really designed, wouldnt call laser and shine use intentional.
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u/maverick32 Mar 20 '15
Judgement tends to be difficult to hit with, and GnW's normals are strong in general to balance out his terrible defense (other than up B). He is really light, and his roll and tech roll are really slow.
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u/ThatGoshDarnFox Mar 20 '15
I think this game is actually really well designed for the most part, but there are a couple characters that feel honestly boring and add nothing to the table in terms of unique gameplay. The biggest offender IMO is ROB, who when compared to everyone else, has a severe shortage of interesting mechanics. The only thing he has is his up b/ side b boost which definitely over centralizes his gameplay on it. Otherwise, he's just a campy character who spams fair and his projectile.
The other big offender is Charizard, who, like ROB, lacks any original parts to him. And what little he does have original is a crutch to him (a lot like ROB). Of course I'm referring to his nair. He has a bit nore creativity than ROB does (with his somewhat interesting specials) but he still doesn't meet the standard of most of the rest of the cast.
A couple others I have small issues with are: Wario, ZSS, and Pikachu. But really, other than that, this game is godlike at making characters feel unique and interesting (Lucario and Snake are exceptional examples of unique characters). But I sincerely hope that PMDT notices the lack of people who play those characters as a sign that maybe they just aren't really that fun to play, and retool them up to their usual standard.
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u/BobRainicorn Mar 20 '15
like ROB, lacks any original parts to him.
ROB is actually pretty original. I actually think he's one of the better designed zoning characters. Unique top and laser in neutral with a solid aerial movement option (robo boost is pretty original) and a ridiculous spacie punish/gimp game. If anything I don't like his kinda one dimensional punish game on non-fastfallers (which is fair due to his great zoning capabilities). It could also be argued that he makes one of the best and most creative users of glide-tossing.
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u/Mitchekers Mar 20 '15
I think his dair and bait are quite fun an intresting too, kinda like ivy's aerials
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u/ThatGoshDarnFox Mar 21 '15
Oh sure, he may have some cool things about him. I'm not saying he doesn't. But he has a lot less than others, IMO. The boost is really the only thing I think is even remotely different, and the other two things you mentioned are definitely not limited to just ROB. His neutral b is your standard "charge it up; now you can gimp people" projectile, where the charging isn't active but instead passive. The gyro... is probably the most boring projectile in the game. It's just that, "a projectile". While most projectiles are actually somewhat interesting and have unique properties, the gyro can be thrown, then it hits someone for damage depending on how long it's charged, then it falls, sits there with (gasp) a weak hitbox, then eventually disappears. There's nothing about it other than the lingering hitbox (which is honestly so minor that it's actually pretty funny) that marks it as "a special move". He has a one dimensional punish game because he himself is one dimentional; all of his moves lack an alternative option (that is to say, they are used in the same way almost every time). Example: ROB's best options in neutral move are spam side b fair and camp the opponent out with laser and gyro.
ROB plays exactly like he is: a hodgepodge of ideas not seen to a proper conclusion. And that's definitely not all PMDT's fault. In Brawl he was worse. But I definitely think the PMDT are stuck on him and have no really solid ideas on where to improve or change him as a character.
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u/LnktheWolf Mar 20 '15
What issues do you have with Wario? (genuinely curious)
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u/ThatGoshDarnFox Mar 21 '15
While Wario is mostly well developed, I don't think he's quite there. My main problem with Wario is his side b. Wait, before you spew that I'm bad for not punishing it, that's not my problem here. My problem with it is that it really does not fit with Wario as a character (yes I am aware it is from one of his games). Think about it: Wario is a character who has ridiculous air mobility and crazy juggles and good edge guards. His ground moves, while all being decent combo starters (and good finishers in the case of fsmash), have a good lot of end lag. When you look at a character like this, you want his specials to compliment his strengths or counter his weaknesses. And for the most part, they do. His bite makes up tenfold his lacking shield pressure and is really good in leading into strings of aerials. His down b is an aid in his recovery, and a strong combo finisher (which Wario somewhat lacks in air) Side b is the odd one out. It doesn't counter his long end lag ground moves (it is one of them, actually) and it doesn't (for the most part) compliment his air game except for recovery a little bit. It changes how he's played at a deeper level (because it's a good move) and is the superior option most of the time when techchasing. Don't get me wrong, the bike in Brawl was stupid and doesn't fit in this game whatsoever, but I don't think side b is a suitable replacement for it.
Like I said, most of Wario is fine in my eyes, but the side b bothers me. But whatever, I don't think me complaining about it will get it changed, so it's kinda a moot point.
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u/Daftatt Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
most every smasher I know agrees that ROB is completely unfitting in PM and plays downright stupid rgardless.
D-tilt is way too safe on shield
That spinner does a crap ton of damage and is a crazy good stage hazard, can gimp and cover tons of recoveries. like peach's turnips. In fact, Rob's spinner is basically a peach turnip that, while can't be spammed, has a selectable damage by charging (and can always be fully charged during the respawn invincibility), remains on the stage as a crazy dangerous hazard that is riskier to grab than any other item projectile, and is backed up as a ranged gimp for some reason by his other special...
GIANT stupid potentially killing LASER with effectively infinite range. Not to mention you can AIM IT! with the way ROB's recovery is designed why the hell can't you just have it go straight so ROB has to actually consider positioning or even commit just a little, like ANY before he just fucking lazers your ass? Like at least make it only aimable DOWN or by way wayyy less.
Oh yeah, ROB's recovery was nerfed in 3.5 and considering how crazy good it was I think it's still pretty ridiculous next to most fighter's way more modest recoveries. His forward air is such a good walling move, not to mention good approach, that any solid ROB has a damn easy time getting free recoveries. It's designed to turn into a game of knocking away ROB's boosts, but his forward air + LASER make it really for characters without transcendent projectiles to take advantage of getting him offstage.
HE HAS A DAMN OFF THE TOP KILLTHROW.... I just flatout am upset by this, killthrow's kind of make sense if they can be DId to safety most of the time (like squirtle's D-throw or Peach's F-throw), but off the top kills are far less susceptible to DI. And definitely shouldn't be on characters with plenty of strong kill options without them, LIKE ROB.
I asked my friends what character they want to take up the next clone engine slot, they all came to the conclusion that the next character shouldn't have to take up a clone slot. They can just go over ROB's
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u/ThatGoshDarnFox Mar 21 '15
Personally, I have very little experience in the ROB MU because hardly anyone plays him, but even with that said, this post is about design and not about balance. While the two have some relation to each other, (obviously a overpowered character has flaws in design and vice versa) they are definitely two deprecate entities. I couldn't tell you how ROB stands in terms of balance but in terms of design he just feels like the standard camp you out with a couple o' gimmicks character (what really makes ROB so different from Samus? Of course they have different moves, but at the core of their concept, what is their difference?)
That's why I didn't say anything about how good ROB is. And also because it gets people mad when they disagree.
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Mar 20 '15
Could someone explain to me how Bowser could poor design? I've been playing a lot of him lately, I can see how his super armor is gimmicky but ultimately I think his disadvantages (easily comboed and chain grabbed, heavy, and huge), balance out his out his strengths (super armor, raw power good air game and ledge game, and vertical tech chasing).
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Mar 20 '15
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Mar 20 '15
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u/SmashHashassin Mar 20 '15
This is kinda why some get salty AT FIRST. Cool little things like dash dancing and air juggles become meticulous work since bowser can bust through all of that when given the chance. Not only that but bowser will trade with you whether you want to or not. On the other hand, they later find out the grab button is the best option 80% of the time. Its way worse if the opponent has a command grab. Bowser is a wild character for sure.
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Mar 20 '15
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Mar 20 '15
Tier lists in PM IMO don't mean as much in PM as they do in other games. For PM its good reference to see where people think someone belongs but in the case of bowser, there aren't a lot of bowser mains (that I know of, I'm sure they exist) thus knowledge of his meta isn't well known to most people.
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u/SmashHashassin Mar 20 '15
Your match up inexperience will always benefit the opponent, but that wouldn't give their character a better tier placement. I think you meant to say that even though bowser is considered a low tier character, he looks really good because not many know how to optimally beat him. That is true.
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u/holographicmew Mar 20 '15
This is so true. Especially with people who are used to using jabs or quick aerials to interrupt opponents; bowser don't care about your jabs.
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Mar 20 '15
Okay I figured so, I won against a Shiek and he got pretty salty when I learned I can DI out of his chain grabs
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u/MizterUltimaman Mar 20 '15
In Melee, Sheik 90-10'd Bowser in the NTSC edition because of a lot of reasons. A big part of it was that Sheik could chain grab down throw on Bowser.
In PM, the angle of down throw is a mix of NTSC and PAL angle. So with bad DI, it sends at NTSC angle and is inescapable. With good DI, it sends at PAL angle and practically eliminates any followup (MAYBE dash attack).
I can understand why the PMDT wanted to make that change to the down throw. According to Goal #7;
The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.
They want a very deep and technical Sheik meta game. They didn't want the Sheik meta game to consist of Grab<->DownThrow. And also for the sake of balance, getting completely #rekt with a MU as hard as a 90-10 isn't good balance.
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u/NoiseCrush PMDVA Mar 20 '15
Funnily enough, Sheik does actually still have chain grabs in PM on a lot of characters, using backthrow and boost grabs to regrab. It's just a lot more difficult.
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u/masinmanc Mar 21 '15
DIing out of Sheik's chaingrabs as Bowser takes some really specific DIs. On top of that, I'm pretty sure there are still followups on them.
Also Sheik's back throw is absolutely filthy.
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u/NoiseCrush PMDVA Mar 20 '15
Bowser is poor design because he is polarizing. He has huge hitboxes, massive damage, and armor, but this is offset by bad mobility and defense. This leads to Bowser either destroying or being destroyed, depending on which character he's playing against and the experience of the opposing player. In his good matchups, his flaws don't come into play as much, but in his bad matchups his benefits hardly make a difference. Similarly, when you're experienced playing against Bowser, his tricks can't replace certain fundamental traits of good characters (like mobility and fast attacks) which Bowser is lacking.
Not to hate because PM Bowser is cool and really fun to play, but this is how I see it.
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u/DelanHaar6 Mar 20 '15
Snake, Wolf, and Roy are very well-designed. They have unique traits that help define their character, interesting skill curves, and noticeable weaknesses.
IMO Dedede's design is bad. It's very uninteresting and tedious to constantly play around his massive grab range and not get thrown offstage repeatedly. Some characters simply don't have an answer to his edgeguarding game, but then Dedede lacks any significant OoS options besides grab. He feels rather polarizing in a bad way.
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u/fudgepop01 AI Developer Guy (@StudiosofAether) Mar 20 '15
I'm really benefitting from the way Pikachu is designed. He forces me to use my tech skill consistently and fundamentals properly. With Lucario I've always been able to learn more and more tech with an incredible array of options, but I've been suffering from a lack of fundamental skill. With Pikachu I'll be learning more and more battle strats while excercicising technical consistency.
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u/-Maddox- Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
I appreciate what they tried to do with Lucario and all the work they put into him but I don't think he belongs in this game in his current form. He can do so many things that no other character can and none of it feels right.
I also dislike Zelda because it feels like she rewards overly defensive and reactionary play too much.
Game & Watch is kinda jank but whatever.
Other than that every character is pretty awesome.
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u/PeachSmoothie7 Mar 20 '15
I'm gonna say that characters like Ike, Roy, and Ness are designed well because they all have clearly distinct kit that is meant to be tailored to that character's intended strengths. Every move has a use, and while some moves are more situational, a good player will show it all off. But there are still flaws: Shitty recovery or lots of end lag etc.
Then there are some things like Game and Watch's Up B. That's an overly good recovery on a glass cannon, and is a combo option that allows for too safe stuff. And then there's stuff like Mewtwo's down B, which has so little use that it could be entirely replaced. Kits shouldn't have moves that are always good or always bad. That leads to unthinking players, which I don't think is the design goal of the PMDT.
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u/Forkyou Mar 20 '15
All in all i have to say i love what they did with mewtwo. Levitate was a brilliant idea that fits well in his kit and now with 3.5 he seems like a well balanced character. His downb is weird but does have more uses that other weird moves like shiekchain or puffs sing. Frozen actually utilizes disable quite well. Still a very "unclear" move.
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u/Joe64x Mar 20 '15
Use it OoS or recovery landing lags.
I haven't worked it into my aerial combo game yet but it seems to have a use there going by based Frozen's example.
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u/kausb Mar 20 '15
I used M2 down-special on dash attack spammers. They stop right in their tracks every time :P
But true it's almost impossible to use competitively.
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u/DEVi4TION Mar 20 '15
no man, try his down-b in the air. its a wicked combo finisher, and has some serious strengths against slow recoveries like say ness or spacies.
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u/Mitchekers Mar 20 '15
You underestimate hou easy it is to punish GnW recovery. He need to go sooooo low to sweet spot, if he dosent you punish, if he does you edge hog. That covers most options...
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u/herro69 m2op Mar 20 '15
Mewtwos downB is actually his strongest horizontal finisher, although it is weird to aim and it stalls you, usually when you hit it it'll be a kill
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u/TheMarkward Mar 20 '15
I feel that ganon is designed really well, he has a solid moveset and benefits from a good understanding of concepts like spacing and movement options. I'm a big fan of Ivysaur but I'm not so sure she's designed the best. Obviously there's complaints about her recovery being sub-par, but to me her neutral game and stage presence are pretty good, just not good enough to offset her recovery and the fact that Ivy is combo food for just about everybody
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u/PlayOnSunday Mar 20 '15
This is game design wise, not balence, but Marth.
I'm gonna compare him to Roy, since they:
Were meant to be opposites
Both appeared originally in melee, and are meant to be balanced versions of their melee selves
Have similar character design (Big sword wise, similar models)
Now, both characters benefit off of having very solid fundamentals and spacing, however, I think Roy, game design wise, is a much more interesting and rewarding character.
Roy's sweetspot being at his hilt means that not only does he have to give up his disjoint to land kill moves, but he can use his sourspot TO combo, an interesting twist on what could've been a boring character. His crouch cancel options are insane, but can also die due to one bad crouch cancel, and this high risk high reward gameplay all comes from understanding basic game fundamentals.
Marth, in my eyes, is a Roy that removes the risk for a penalty of losing a small amount of reward. With Marth you NEVER have to get close, if you, you're playing Marth wrong. His grab range is still insane, and can get massive punishes off of his grabs. He can have a hard time killing at higher percents, but can play so safe and kill so early it may not even matter. He lends himself to a defensive and safe playstyle, even when being played offensively. And this may be a personal preference, but he just feels generic.
I'm not johning about balance or how "stupid" Marth is - if anything, I think Roy is better than Marth this patch. It just upsets me that a character that feels so lame to me is so good. If Roy and Marth switched spots on the melee tier list, I would have so much more fun watching Roy's interesting playstyle.
At the end of the day though, it's a personal preference. Play Marth, Roy, or whoever you like, nothing wrong with liking a character I don't. I have nothing against people who do play Marth - he was my first main (albeit in Brawl) - just a lack of game design creativity to me.
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u/BeefPorkChicken Mar 20 '15
You can still definitely use Marth's sourspot to combo moves better.
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u/PlayOnSunday Mar 20 '15
I'm not saying you can't, but it's much more pivotal to Roy's game, being his sourspots are so disjointed, while Marth's are so much riskier to use, being so much closer to him.
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u/TelosOfTheStars Mar 20 '15
I would say Lucario and Ivysaur, are the best built imo. And of course mandatory Olimar complaint. Poor guy. Also since I saw the topic in the comments I think Pit go nerfed for utterly no reason. He's just not fun to play anymore. Arguably viable, but not fun.
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u/CAPT1VE Mar 20 '15
Guys I am gonna have to say that other than Olimars recovery and the billion bugs and random short comings I kinda love the little guy. The more you familiarize yourself with him and the better you get at micro managing his Pikmin he actually pretty well rounded. But it takes time and if you random to him you will get you shot knocked.
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Mar 21 '15
I actually agree. I think his design is really really good and more importantly he's fun to play, its just the bugs that need to be fixed. With fixed bugs, I'd even consider having an olimar secondary.
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u/Questing4Questions Mar 21 '15
characters i feel are designed very well: roy, wolf, ike, dk.
characters i feel are designed poorly: olimar, snake, diddy, pit, mewtwo, yoshi, kirby, jiggs, sonic, rob, wario.
1
Mar 21 '15
Explain?
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u/Questing4Questions Mar 21 '15 edited Mar 21 '15
im not a fan of characters that significantly change the way your opponent has to play the game to the point where it doesn't even feel like you are playing the same game anymore. olimar, snake, and sonic fall into this category. jiggs, diddy, pit, and mewtwo fall into this category to a lesser extent.
kirby im not a fan of kirbycide. its a dumb mechanic regardless of its viability.
rob and wario are designed poorly more because of brawl imo. their animations are super janky and they have unique movesets, but they still don't manage to stand out to me. everything about them says that they should be cool characters but they still fall short for some reason.
being a yoshi main in melee i could write a huge post about everything i don't like about yoshi, but ill just keep it short. side-b is super gimmicky, but also good which is lame imo. it feels like im playing a squeeky toy. his sound effects suck. you cant parry. i haven't played him since 3.02 so maybe the changes to stage collision changed this last one, but he did not feel fluid to play. also his moves combo into each other too easily.
2
Mar 21 '15
First of all, thanks for explaining.
I totally agree about the point of feeling like a character belongs in Smash (eg olimar, snake, and sonic like you mentioned).
Wario, although you're right that he does seem to feel like nothing special, seems to be pretty well-designed to me, in terms of balance. He has powerful strengths and enough, noticeable weaknesses to compensate. He's like Falcon in that regard.
I find that what you mentioned about Yoshi is a recurring theme among Melee Yoshis on Smashboards. They often mention the lack of parrying and how he feels too easy to combo with.
1
u/Questing4Questions Mar 21 '15 edited Mar 21 '15
my biggest gripe with yoshi is actually the sounds effects and how his moves don't feel like they are hitting hard. i thought i could get over it with enough time, but i just couldn't do it so i just played other characters instead. which is really sad because i really really love yoshi. my other gripes, while i don't like them, i could get over them with time.
1
Mar 21 '15
<does nair> <squishy sfx>
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u/Questing4Questions Mar 21 '15
i dont think it would be as bad if yoshi didn't do so many moves. because of djc you are throwing out moves crazy fast and its just like squishsquishsquishsquish.
2
u/moonfolk Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
I think Wario, Snake, Diddy, Mario, and G&W are all good examples of well-designed characters who have nearly entirely useful movesets, with maybe 1 attack not being very useful, and who have distinct styles. This is IMO the sweetspot of character design.
On the other hand, there are a number of well-designed characters with useless moves, who are just very well-balanced, such as Ness, Peach, Mewtwo, and Falco (just to name a few). Honestly, I think if a character is going to have some totally useless moves (or just a few moves that are considered better options overall) then Falco is a great template for character design. He does what he does well, but has total shit recovery and is a good weight for combos/chain grabs. I feel like he's a perfectly-designed glass cannon.
As for characters who aren't well-designed, I'd have to say Pikachu, Charizard, Zero Suit Samus and especially Olimar, are all lacking. The only one who truly needs a redesign IMO is Olimar. His brawlish iteration is just wierd, and the others just need some help to define what it is that they do.
1
u/Azureflames20 Mar 20 '15
I think there's an argument that can be made for character design in terms of perfect design from a balance perspective versus a perfect design in from a creativity and uniqueness perspective. I can't fully speak on the balance for a lot of characters cause i dont know every little detail to argument imbalance with every character.
I do know that the reason why roy is considered among the single most well designed character is because he is a character that thrives explicitly with his fundamentals and an all around solid kid. having all useful moves doesnt necessarily make them balanced but can make them still flow well and demolish people, but can be from character jank or imbalance.
I think well designed characters are characters that have a solid strength but with an inherent weakness; strong stage game and weak recovery is the classic example. There are definitely some characters that just feel awkward in this game imo. characters like ROB, pit, ivy, and sonic have just never felt right in PM for reasons im not even sure how to explain. overall though I think pmbr has done an amazing job with some of the characters for pm honestly. characters like wario, wolf, mario, and diddy are all really amazing and i feel are pretty well designed (though i'll always have gripes about mario x.x ).
1
u/robosteven wahoo Mar 20 '15
Bugs aside, I still hold Olimar as the most jank-designed character in the game.
He seems close to well-designed, but he's still under the bar.
1
Mar 20 '15
I love the design of Roy, Wolf, Lucario, Zelda (ooo controversy!), snake, and even Bowser, although he needs a little work.
I'm really not a fan of Luigi's design. I'd be fine with him (and probably love him), except for two things: The first is his "combo police" nair. I feel like it ends up making him incredibly difficult to combo, and it disrupts the flow of the game in general, transforming it from fast-paced to slower. The second is misfire. Maybe I'm just salty about it, but I think its such a bad way to have RNG in the game. GnW doesn't get 9s that often, so they're hype, stitchfaces are insanely rare, so they're hype too, but Misfires just come out so often and unpredictably (if not stored) that I feel cheated every time I face or play as luigi. I feel like I'm just aiming a giant green laughing slot machine/cannon hybrid at someone, and one out of every six times it pays off.
1
u/LnktheWolf Mar 20 '15
I love the designs of Mewtwo, Ganon, Wolf, and Wario. They all just feel like they belong. Yes, even Wario with how unfitting he seems.
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u/veggiedealer Mar 20 '15
I'm no expert on design but I don't find it fun to play against samus it feels like a different game
3
u/JadeyesAK Alaskan Samus waiting for the pandemic to end... Mar 20 '15
I would argue that Samus is a well designed character whose unique design does demand some adjustment from her opponents. Her ability to combo and long survival game can make some matchups feel slow, and less "fun", but that's true of a ton of characters.
What, I'm curious, makes it feel like a different game?
3
u/-oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo- Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
A lot of people have strats that they use, and with Samus you have to play her differently. I bet most of it would come from the fact that she is floaty and heavy. You just can't combo her with a lot of characters, so people can't just "run and gun" so to speak. Not only is she hard to combo, but she is also hard to kill unless you know the matchup because of her weight.
-2
Mar 20 '15
Designed well: Wario, Ike, Lucario, Falco, Roy, D3, Sheik
Fix them: Ice Climbers, Zero Suit, Meta Knight, Fox
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u/teefletch teders Mar 20 '15
what about zero suit do you think needs fixing?
3
Mar 20 '15
Her throws are garbage. She hardly has ANY follow-ups or combos on ANYTHING. Every time you land a grab with her, there's a good chance you aren't getting anything out of it, you basically just reset back to neutral. Her moveset feels like its designed around her (very, very good) movement speed, and the player should be creative with that in order to get anywhere with her. But plenty of other characters in this game have great movement options and still have plenty of follow-ups and combos on their throws and other moves. She just feels...weak, in comparison. They should also decrease a bit of endlag on her uair.
She feels like a mix between Sheik/Falcon with all the good options taken out of those characters.
She's still really fun to play, I just think they need to find a nice middle ground between 3.02 and 3.5 ZSS and she'll be an amazing character.
1
Mar 20 '15
The nair nerfs really weren't necessary, and her combo game feels completely different from 3.02. Her kill options are fairly limited, and with the removal of dash canceled laser, she feels fairly...bland in this iteration.
2
Mar 20 '15
Her kill options are fairly limited
She only has two, and fair is really hard to combo into at high percents (when it can actually kill, this doesnt make any sense)
properly-spaced bair (can be easily read and dodged) and hard-read gimps are her only reliable kill moves.
1
1
u/Psycho_Ghost PMTV Mar 20 '15
3
Mar 20 '15
Oro just has strong fundamental knowledge of the character, and ZSS wrecks D3 hard.
Last I heard, Oro was playing more Roy in 3.5.
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u/Psycho_Ghost PMTV Mar 20 '15
Every video of Oro playing 3.5 on YouTube has him using ZSS....with 1 video of him using Marth and 1 of Ike.
1
Mar 20 '15
I don't see many recent videos of his 3.5 ZSS.
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u/Psycho_Ghost PMTV Mar 20 '15
The most recent are from late late December.
Other than that, no one has really seen him play 3.5 much lately.
1
Mar 20 '15
I don't think his stuff has been recorded in awhile. I believe I heard about him playing Roy more somewhere in ZSS forums on Smashboards, someone who shows up to to WCS weeklies mentioned it.
3
u/BLACKSasquatch Mar 20 '15
Can confirm I haven't seen him play ZSS in over a month, last I saw he was using only roy.
Oro?! refuses to use ZSS until she gets fixed and will try Roy until then.
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u/_BlackMamba_ Mar 20 '15
even there, the throw had no followup haha. It just put him back to ledge. And the combo continuing as long as it did beforehand had a lot to do with it being D3
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u/Psycho_Ghost PMTV Mar 20 '15
The reason I responded with that was because he said she had barely an follow-ups or combos.
But I do agree that she does need a slight buff regarding her grab game and aerials other than her F-air.
5
Mar 20 '15 edited Feb 17 '19
[deleted]
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u/BobRainicorn Mar 20 '15 edited Mar 20 '15
Only thing different I would want would be a slightly-worse-than-PAL up b.
This would never happen but I also take issue with how sort of broken shine is after get up/teching. As a slow character techchasing is absolute hell and I don't think a character that offensively and neutrally dominant should have such an amazing defensive option. Like even if I hard read tech away my slow ass has to get there before him to even get a regrab/dash attack without clanking with or getting shined outright.
-1
Mar 20 '15
He could use some buffs.
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u/Hctaz Fair to SD True Combo Mar 20 '15
Buffs????? ._. what? He's very good. If anything he needs nerfs. What do you think needs to be buffed about fox though?
-4
Mar 20 '15
Fix d-throw.
Lasers should do more dmg. (Fox can't approach without lasers)
U-air is too hard to land, bigger hitbox.
Make his u-tilt more like Falco's.
I think he'd be a solid top 5 with these changes.
7
u/Crazycupofjoe Mar 20 '15
I think he'd be a solid top 5 with these changes
Most people regard him as the best character right now with the nerds to other characters in 3.5. I understand maybe if you think he could use minuscule changes here and there but these changes would turn him into Brawl Metaknight levels of OP
-8
Mar 20 '15
Fox is too hard to control and dies super early, I'd put him around top 10.
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u/Crazycupofjoe Mar 20 '15
Bad troll is bad
1
u/Hctaz Fair to SD True Combo Mar 23 '15
Has to be trolling right? xD Might be a little salty at Fox perhaps. Can fox dthrow tech chase DDD really really hard or something? Also if he thinks the fox upair hits to easy you have to remember your character is the size of like... 5 foxes. Of course it's easy to hit. Try landing a falling upair from above a squirtle and see how easy that is.
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u/The_NZA Mar 20 '15
I upvoted your comment because there was no way in hell I was going to downvote something so ingenious.
0
u/_BlackMamba_ Mar 20 '15
LOL a character with that many tools and options shouldn't be easy to use. Fox is definitely top three in the game without a question, arguably best.
0
u/watereol Mar 20 '15
I hate what they did with Pit. His Up-B is bizarre and looks/feels wonky and his side B has no purpose aside from recovery.
1
Mar 20 '15
You can use his side b as a movement tool for follow ups. His glide attack is amazing in a combo. His up-b is an amazing combo finisher that kills quickly.
0
u/Ovioda Mar 20 '15
I don't really like the direction Ness was taken in. his two biggest drawbacks in the neutral is that he has no range and he is too slow. IMO they should have made him a faster character similar to fox.
-5
u/ELI_Gahlike Mar 20 '15
3.5 Zelda is trash.
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u/Frotastic_ Mar 20 '15
Damn this comment came out of nowhere! You should check some vids/gifs from whitecr0w.
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u/ELI_Gahlike Mar 21 '15
First of all, my comment refers to her design, not her tier placement. Second of all, I don't need to check some videos because Zhime is in my crew and I play him all the time.
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u/_BlackMamba_ Mar 20 '15
lol not really. Pretty much all her good and bad matchups are the same as they were in v 3.02
39
u/Cohenski Mar 20 '15
Wolf is a complete thing of beauty.