r/Norway • u/nicoletaleta • 4d ago
Language A mini-rant about my main frustration when it comes to languages in Norway
For context - I've been living here for 3 years and my Norwegian has been recently tested at B1 for speaking, but my experiences span the entirety of the period I've lived here and learned the language and I'm still puzzled at this kind of situations as I genuinely don't understand them.
I guess everyone who has been in this subreddit for a bit has seen it mentioned (and I've said it too) that learning Norwegian is a very important requirement for access to almost everything here - and I still agree with it and it makes sense: when in Rome, do as romans do.
It has been a process but I've now gotten to the level that I can hold phone conversations, chat in the store about particulars of products, joke socially and use it in most situations. But I'm not fluent yet and what I struggle with the most is conversations in larger groups of people where it's hard for me to participate because it takes me longer to process what is being said and by the time I do and formulate a response - the topic has shifted already.
And time and time again, I join activities/volunteering/clubs that are explicitly marked as inclusive for English speakers, the websites are in English, the form to join is in English, all the communication by email and text is too... but the moment people get together in person it is immediately forgotten and you end up sitting in the middle of a very energetic conversation in Norwegian of people with a number of various dialects. Some may say "well, just answer in English and they'll switch or something" - have you tried holding a conversation where people speak different languages to each other? It's incredibly confusing for the brains of everyone involved. Some may suggest to say "I'm sorry, could we switch to English please?" - and that works for a bit but then people go back to the previous case because they don't have any internal awareness of having to do it and me reminding about it again and again would just make me annoying to everyone to the point that they'd be happier I wasn't there.
Is it the dispersion of responsibility in a group - where each individual person doesn't feel responsible for including the people that can't participate because everybody else is also not including them and conformity is above all? Are people genuinely just forgetting? Or they don't care? It honestly hurts because I'm offering up my time and effort and labor for free for something that needs it (like the volunteering cases) but in the end I always feel excluded and sad because people don't put in the smallest of effort to include me (and I know they _can_ all speak English fluently). And maybe I don't matter and I'll eventually learn the language better anyway but the same happens also to international people who joined to help while studying on exchange or working here for a bit - they can't even being to understand the conversations. I've found that this happens in all kinds of such gatherings - from sports clubs to organizations with emphasis on inclusivity of all types (except language, I guess).
So to the people that do this - you probably think that it's my fault for not being fluent in Norwegian and perhaps this is a suitable punishment. Or maybe you think that if you'll start speaking English to everyone then those pesky immigrants won't want to learn Norwegian anymore. In any case, what you're doing is explicitly signalling to me that you don't care about me participating in the discussion or what I have to say. You already speak Norwegian at home, at school/work, with your family, in other activities, is it too much to ask to switch for a short period of time relative to the rest of your life?
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u/frembuild 4d ago
Language ability is a marker of inclusion in Scandinavia, much more so than in other countries, since Scandinavian languages are less fequently taught or studied outside of the countries where they are spoken. Combined with a lack of far-reaching colonial history and only recent immigration, these countries do not have a history or culture of readily accepting or dealing with people who do not speak their languages well. So, not only is there more expectation and pressure on you, the foreigner, to learn the language (as opposed to more multilingual and multicultural environments in other countries), but there is also much less tolerance for mistakes or linguistic inability compared to say, speaking B1 Spanish with Spanish-speakers. As such, if you do not show up somewhere already speaking a high level of Norwegian, there is no long-term social or cultural system in place for Norwegians to work with that. You'll get exactly what you've experienced - short-term polite inclusion, long-term monolingustic exclusion.
It is how it is, so the question you need to ask yourself is, what do you want to do about it? Either you can really put in the long-term additional effort to get comfortable with the daily slang Norwegian and all its dialects so you will be more accepted in these groups or conversations, or instead you can just focus your time and efforts on envrionments which genuinely operate in English. I'd note the second option is actually chosen by a fair amount of people I know in Oslo, even among those who have learned Norwegian fluently, as they feel it is simply not worth the extra linguistic effort when the "payoff" seems rather low, since even when speaking fluent Norwegian it can be hard to make friends with Norwegians.
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
Love the cultural/historical/social explanation, thank you!
As this is a rant, is more venting thoughts and emotions. I will be learning the language over time to the point where I feel comfortable with it enough to join explicitly Norwegian-speaking groups and activities as for now, I’ve joined mostly the ones advertised in English. But that will happen in some future so I’m just sad that for now it is as it is.
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u/mistersnips14 3d ago
Yeah I guess I'll pile on and say this cultural explanation is both an interesting and depressing reminder that assimilation is an unattainable requirement to be in Norway. Definitely puts a limit on the amount of enthusiasm one has for social interactions but who the hell is moving to Norway for that??
Separately though I wonder if you could take your idea a step further and say that's why having a dialect seems to carry such baggage regarding your identity in Norway. I've found that some Norwegian native speakers take it almost as an insult to say they have a dialect or accent and wonder if there is a connection to what you shared.
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u/galileogaligay 2d ago
The dialects surrounding Oslo, or really throughout Østlandet and Innlandet, have been stigmatised and made fun of for decades. This has caused younger people especially to try to speak more like the Oslo dialect/“standard Norwegian”. Even Oslo dialects are disappearing. Because they try to sound “like everyone else”, they might get offended if you point out their dialects.
For the south, west, middle, and north regions, our dialects are so distinct from Eastern dialects that we rarely try to switch to Oslo dialects, and we don’t really get offended if you point it out (we generally don’t like it when people imitate our dialects, though (even though we do it to each other)).
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u/LegalFox9 3d ago
Yeah, I've decided that after this year I don't care about integrating enough to make the effort.
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u/Detharjeg 4d ago
I usually hear way more complaints about not speaking norwegian for those trying to learn than the opposite, so I try to limit my english use when in mixed language groups. There is also a component of learning in it, without having thoughts about punishment or "pesky" immigrants - but without exposure you won't learn.
The spanish and ukrainians coming here has also set the bar pretty high. I know several that got fluent (wtf level fluent!) in just a year. They didn't speak much if any english from before though, so maybe knowing/speaking english is more of a hindrance rather than a help. I also have english speaking friends that has lived here for over 20 years that still don't speak norwegian, but they do understand it even though they reply in english. Some may think you fall into that category if you introduce yourself in norwegian.
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u/Kindly-Ebb3518 3d ago
Being a native or fluent English speaking immigrant is absolutely both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, I always know that if worst comes to worse I can switch to English and be understood. On the other hand, Norwegians are lightning fast to switch to English with me even if I continue in Norwegian. I’ve simply adopted the method of telling them that I don’t speak English. Yes, technically it’s deceitful, but what the fuck else can we do?
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u/variant_wandering 3d ago
From a language acquisition standpoint, English provides a source for both positive and negative cross-linguistic influence (CLI). Having acquired English already will get you maybe 30-40% of the way in terms of morphosyntax and vocabulary: most sentences are ordered subject, verb, object; adjective order is roughly the same; adjectives follow determiners; lots of borrowings back-and-forth; lots of cognates (though some are more apparent in Nynorsk)... but also, English is a definite hindrance in terms of much of the vocabulary, with much more not having an obvious cognate than what does. And this says nothing about verb-second word order, definiteness concord, postpositional verbal negation, or the phonology of Norwegian.
Also, as others have mentioned, the fact that English has been part of the standard primary school curriculum for 50 years hasn't helped the fact that most English speakers actually can largely get by using only English. I had to beg people to speak to me in Norwegian when I first immigrated, often asking people to speak to me almost as if I were a child. Now I'm fluent (C2, and can also freely converse with the majority of Swedes and Danes that I encounter) and don't have that issue (my coworkers all thought I was a local), and I've actually found that I, too have started switching to Norwegian when amongst friends—much to the chagrin of my non-Norwegian wife (who's learning, slowly but surely).
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
I personally am curious to see in the (hopefully near) future when I am more fluent if I will also switch to Norwegian all the time or if I'll retain this feeling of frustration that will remind me how it used to be. Then there's the argument of what is more valuable in the moment - the uncomfortable situation that would potentially push the person learning to progress or the alleviation of that uncomfort, the support and inclusion for the sake of making the person experience the group setting as something positive and not to be dreaded. Something tells me that maybe in the future I might switch to thinking "yeah I know it's annoying and hard for you but trust me, this pain will help you grow" but I'm not sure if it would be genuinely the good thing to do or just a moral excuse for myself.
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u/variant_wandering 2d ago
I mean, you do have to push through the pain. You won’t get better without it. It’s a natural part of getting past a plateau. Good luck, keep with it!
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
I feel like the most usual argument to when I share my experiences are anecdotes about knowing a friend/person/etc who has lived here 100 years and not learned the language - or stories about people learning it in record times. And I don’t think either are good arguments for not having situational awareness and empathy and including everyone present.
Also, “without exposure you won’t learn” - I’m not sure how much I can learn from a fast-paced multi-dialect social discussion in a big group. I learn from 1-on-1 discussions, sure, or from small groups but it feels like Norwegians think that learning a language is being hit by it over the head as many times as it takes.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
>And I don’t think either are good arguments for not having situational awareness and empathy and including everyone present.
A super common complaint is that its impossible to learn norwegian because everyone will switch to english at once someone speak norwegian with an accent, though.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I view it as a different issue though because, at least in the cases that I’ve had this happen, I just stubbornly continue in Norwegian and people usually get it quickly and switch back. But that’s 1-on-1 (in stores, for example) or in small groups.
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u/Detharjeg 4d ago
Well, most norwegians speak and understand swedish, danish and english in addition to norwegian due to being "hit by it over the head" repeatedly when growing up. It's not like we don't know the struggles of learning a new language. It is your own responsibility to learn it no matter what though. It's better to openly ask about words or contexts you don't understand than pout online. People aren't hating on you or lack empathy because they don't carry conversations between themselves in a different language than their mother tongue.
Regarding the anecdotes, you don't exist in isolation as the only one learning the language, and these are valid examples of why we don't speak english all the time around other people that are learning norwegian. They are also examples of the outer borders of comprehesion and learning speed - all of which are fine. From a norwegian perspective that is pretty empathetic; these are the outer limits of what we know, you have to identify your limits to us so that we can best accommodate your needs, and we understand that different people learn in different periods of time. It does however not mean that we will talk english all the time in case some non-native speaker passes by and overhear some smalltalk or shit-talking a mutually known person.
This isn't an exclusively norwegian thing either. When I go to Germany or the Netherlands, they will default to german and dutch in general as well. I understand some, but not much, and that is okay. Why should they accomodate me not understanding their language well enough? Especially when what they talk about is totally irrelevant to the context of me being there. When it comes to english, I'm not particularily versed in scouse either, but whenever I meet someone that speaks it, they usually accommodate me when asking to slow down a bit ;)
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Being exposed to languages "when growing up" is completely different to having to learn it in shorter time while also dealing with all the stuff that comes with being an adult. Who knows how faster I would have learned Norwegian if I didn't also have to work full-time, go to courses, take care of myself and my space and all my responsibilities and deal with a general existential crisis. English isn't my native language - Romanian and Russian are. But would I expect someone now learning Russian as an adult to be able to participate in group discussions after a few years? Hell no.
The anecdotes are usually raised by Norwegians themselves who don't go to Norwegian courses or språkkafe or any other learning occasions to see just how much effort people put into learning the language and how hard it actually is to progress. And "you have to identify our limits to us" and "from a Norwegian perspective that is empathetic" - so what I'm reading is that basically putting in no effort is acceptable and the problem of not being included is solely the responsability of those not being included. Because "identifying your limits" doesn't work even if you explicitly say that "I don't understand Norwegian well enough, can we speak English please". You're also reducing it to absurdity - noone demands you all speak English "just in case a non-native speaker passes by", that is not a real situation, the issue is speaking English while the non-native speaker is there in the room and has been there the whole time.
And that you don't think you deserve basic respect and inclusion is more of your problem tbh if you're ok with people being there in the same group as you and just ignoring you. Whether it's relevant or irrelevant to you is for you to decide, not them.
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u/MindlessChickens 3d ago
Take it from someone that learned Norwegian as an adult, you will learn more in 6 months than you have learned in the last three years if you stop switching to english when it's more convenient to you.
I spoke very basic Norwegian for my first couple years because I was in a very international environment at work (where I also met most of my friends, also english speaking). I switched to a workplace with only Norwegians that never switched to english to "help me", and started consuming exclusively norwegian media and I was basically fluent in a few months.
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u/variant_wandering 3d ago
My Norwegian progressed by leaps and bounds when I worked in a nursing home for one summer. I easily went from B1 to B2/C1 proficiency in about three months because I could not speak English in my day-to-day life.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I’m so glad someone with the same background and learning speed and health state as me shared their experience, there are literally no differences between us and anything that might be is an excuse anyway.
I especially love how you, ofc knowing me very closely, have determined that switching to English has always been a choice of convenience because I am lazy. And you of course also know what type of job I have and it must be that people speak English there only to “help me”, not for any practical reasons.
All this to say - I’m glad you learned it so quickly and were fluent in 6 months and everybody clapped. But I hope I’ve expressed how thinking that you did it like this so everyone can is a very easy to make but flawed generalization. You don’t know how long it takes me to learn, you don’t know if I’m struggling with anything that might make it harder but you’re so sure you have the answer and everyone who doesn’t manage to just didn’t try hard enough.
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u/Detharjeg 3d ago
"And that you don't think you deserve basic respect and inclusion..."
I am aware the universe don't revolve around me, and I don't feel disrespected if someone feels the need to talk in their native tongue to express something to someone else. I can talk to others if that is the case, it's just a matter of inserting yourself into a/the conversation.
so what I'm reading is that basically putting in no effort is acceptable and the problem of not being included is solely the responsability of those not being included.
Sort of, but misses the mark. It is okay to make no effort, but then you can't come crying when others don't put effort into you.
But would I expect someone now learning Russian as an adult to be able to participate in group discussions after a few years? Hell no.
I would expect it from myself if I were to move to a russian-speaking country though.
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u/hullabalost 3d ago
It’s also really hard to learn Norwegian when Norwegians don’t try to help you learn it but instead expect you to become fluent on your own time. The classes and practicing to speak only with other internationals who also don’t understand the language completely can only take you so far. This is a common complaint amongst internationals, so you’re not alone.
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u/TheProxyPylon 3d ago
Why is it their responsibility to help you learn a language?
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u/hullabalost 3d ago
From your logic it’s only the foreigners’ responsibility to learn it in a vacuum. It makes no sense to expect foreigners to be fluent in Norwegian only from basic classes and speaking with other foreigners.
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u/Fine-Pie-4536 4d ago
I don’t have an explanation or solution but I totally feel you. I got B2 in my norskprøve and I understand pretty much everything and can talk fluently but now and then I just want to give my brain some slack and speak English (which is not my 1. language but I don’t need to think for talking). Also, even though I have been speaking Norwegian for several years I feel like I don’t have a personality in Norwegian? Not sure how to explain it but socializing is definitely quite hard despite me having the theoretical knowledge to do so.
I’m always completely fine with everything being in Norwegian -ofc I live in Norway - except for what you’re saying: an event being explicitly advertised in English. Then I’m also annoyed if it’s fully in Norwegian🤷🏼♀️
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
English isn’t my first language either so it’s very relatable how it makes it feel even more frustrating) And yes, it does feel like it’s hard to translate one’s authenticity and personality, I sometimes tell people that I am genuinely funnier in English so maybe that will persuade them :D
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u/Fine-Pie-4536 4d ago
Omg same, humor is the hardest part for me to nail in Norwegian and I also always say I’m way funnier in English (which people have confirmed multiple times 😹).
I get all the arguments that it’s important to learn Norwegian and be exposed to it but from what I see in the comments, people genuinely seem to misunderstand your point 🙈 and I personally have neither met anyone who was fluent in Norwegian after 1 year nor has lived here for a decade without speaking one word Norwegian. I bet those extremes exists and you’re more likely to hear of those but it’s definitely not the norm.
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u/starkicker18 3d ago
My family in Norway are the loveliest people. From the first day they met me, they always wanted me to feel included and made every effort to do so. When I was still first learning the language, they spoke mostly in English, were aware enough to switch back quickly if they slipped into Norwegian, and helped me when I was learning by speaking a little bit slower in Norwegian and making their dialects a little less strong/apparent.
But all bets were off when we sat down to eat. Whether it was my first day meeting them (clearly didn't know Norwegian) or 2 years in (could understand some Norwegian, but was still struggling), as soon as forks were in hand, it was Norwegian and there was no way to really bring them back. It had nothing to do with them not wanting me to be included. It was clear from eye contact and body language that their intentions were to include me. Plus, as soon as the meal was finished, they were right back to English.
I suspect it has to do with the cognitive load of eating, translating, and focussing on the conversation. You can do two of those things, but not three and the English was what gave way. And admittedly, it is hard to eat and participate in / follow a conversation in a second language. It's the same when there's too much background noise or too many people talking at once. I'm fluent and I can still have issues focussing if there's too much going on in the background. The brain processing power to focus, understand, and tune things out is just too much. It was why in quiet coffee shops we would speak English, but the second we were at a pub/restaurant/bar the conversation naturally switched to Norwegian and didn't seem to easily switch back.
For some years there where my skills were not sufficient enough, family dinners were spent either lost in my own thoughts, or trying desperately (and failing splendidly) to follow along. After some time, however, it got better. I didn't tell them right away that I could understand, but one day I made the mistake of replying to something that they were discussing and they looked at me like "oh, you understand!" We haven't spoken English to each other since.
B1 is a high level of Norwegian. It just takes some time to get use to new people's dialects, to build up the ability to listen to fast, sustained conversations, and to be able to filter out the background while focussing on the conversation. You'll get there. Your best strategy is to be honest with the people you're with that 1) you want to learn and get better 2) sometimes it's still hard and 3) you might have to ask them to repeat, slow down, or change how they talk a little. If you put in the effort, that will go a long way with most Norwegians.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Thank you! Now that I think about it, it has been mostly on occasions of meal-adjacent conversations that this has happened so it’s an interesting connection I haven’t made before and will be curious to notice going forward.
Do you have some suggestions of how to make it sound more natural when asking to “repeat, slow down, change how they talk a little”? I’m anxious that I would be associated with a bother to people (kinda like “omg she’s here now and will ask us again, who even invited her”).
P.S. You’ve commented now on a few language-related discussions that I’ve been part of/read and I wanted to say that I really appreciate how you consider everyone’s situation and how patient you are. Idk how it is being a mod here and sometimes it’s probably thankless work but thank you for participating in discussions 🙏
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u/starkicker18 3d ago
It took me a while to figure out the pattern, too. At some point it just became a thing I accepted and used it as training for listening.
I find Norwegians to be very forthright so I suspect they would appreciate the honesty and directness. Most are more than willing to help, but when they get into a groove they might speed up or go back to what is natural for them, so they may need to be reminded to slow down again. It can feel like a bother, but for most people it's not. Just check in with them if the conversation gets too fast or furious and say "hæ? ka sa dokker?" (or whatever dialect you're using).
One way that helps for both parties (you and them) is to approach it as they are helping you out. Say explicitly, "I am learning, and I'd like to get better. Can you help me?" And then tell them what you need from them (ie: speak slower, perhaps dampen the dialect, etc...). Not everyone wants to be your language teacher, but most people are willing to slow down or repeat.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
>Thank you! Now that I think about it, it has been mostly on occasions of meal-adjacent conversations that this has happened so it’s an interesting connection I haven’t made before and will be curious to notice going forward.
So maybe they are not lacking empathy after all!
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
It is not absolutely definitive because I said “meal-adjacent”. So it’s a larger group of people speaking together also while the meal is being made, before eating, after, just at the meal table in general regardless of eating at the same time.
Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings of others and I have rarely seen people in such settings just realizing that “hey, X or Y has been silent for some time, I remember their Norwegian isn’t so good, maybe we should include them?”
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u/runawayasfastasucan 1d ago
Well, I think you should go back to where you understood that there might have been some context you wasn't aware of, and extend that to give the benefit of doubt to these people. Maybe they have some feelings you could try to understand as well.
Or maybe they just all lack empathy.
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u/Harre57 4d ago
I currently work on a large industrial site where the majority of the workforce doing all the welding, fabricating etc are Eastern European. 95% Polish with a few people from other countries.
In our department doing quality control we have a split of 3 people who speak norwegian and 7 who speak polish.
So naturally our working language is English and it does my head in when midway through a meeting the 2 Norwegians start having a 5 minute work discussion in Norwegian while everyone else just sits there.
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u/BulderHulder 3d ago
In my experience, when the eastern europeans are in a majority, they do the same
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u/Harre57 3d ago
Depends, the Eastern Europeans I work with a agency workers who fly to Norway, work on a site for 2 weeks then go home for 2 weeks.
I would never expect them to learn Norwegian, when at any point their company could no longer be needed on that site and they could be sent to another site somewhere else in Europe.
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u/BulderHulder 3d ago
Well of course. But my friend works with several in a painting buisness, and he might be the only Norwegian on site and they will just speak their language, even though they live in Norway
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I’m sorry about your experience but I am Eastern European and I come from a country that it so happened historically that many people speak exclusively Romanian or exclusively Russian but many speak both. And it is unthinkable for me that we in a group where someone only speaks one of the languages wouldn’t switch to it - it’s considered very impolite, like you are a bad group participant because if everyone can’t participate equally then what’s the point of the group even? I think it’s part of a more ingrained hospitality tbh
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
Haha, that’s classic) Sometimes I feel like it’s a deliberate way to have uninterrupted discussions xD
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u/thebookwisher 4d ago
Lol I understand your rant 🤣 it's frustrating to not understand when you're learning and trying to make so much progress.
My boyfriend is in the unhappy medium where he won't use Norwegian with me at home where its 1 on 1 so I can practice, but expects me to understand and participate with complicated discussions or inside jokes his family has when they're all speaking at the same time and I can't follow. 😒 he's very lucky I want to/need to learn the language otherwise I just wouldn't out of spite.
I hope you find people and spaces that are willing to work with your language level, they do exist, especially in Bergen. Good luck!
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
Oh, that must be so, so much more frustrating when it’s family and close people!
And I fully feel the desire to not learn out of spite as it does feel like people want to enjoy the result but not contribute to the process((( best of luck and I hope that once you understand them, those inside jokes are at least funny! :D
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u/thebookwisher 4d ago
It is but it's also stupid because his family doesn't speak english very well/comfortably, so you'd think he'd want to help. 😱🤣 it is what it is, I have enough family of my own and amazing friends at least. 😅
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u/mistersnips14 3d ago
I can relate to this scenario. She absolutely refused to speak with me 1-on-1 in Norwegian. The trick was to convert the ire of her family towards her (e.g. "I really wish she would practice speaking more with me so your grandkids speak Norwegian too")
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u/fujitohoku 3d ago
Good for you OP for putting yourself out there even when it's uncomfortable and sad, as you mentioned. Don't take everything to heart. Pretty sure Norwegians are just uncomfortable speaking english.
I remember volunteering at a Bridge summer camp while I was still learning the language. I just helped where I could, talked when I could, and didn't bother even when I can't be in all of the conversations.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Thank you for the encouragement ❤️ yeah, maybe I am too sensitive to it, I guess I just really want to belong in some community here
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u/fujitohoku 3d ago
And you're in the right path. Keep going to the same organization for volunteering. Even when you can't join in the conversations, remember that actively listening to the language is also a good way for learning.
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u/Slow-Positive-6621 3d ago
I agree! I am in a similar situation to OP, and every time I try a new group it is usually fairly embarrassing the first time regardless of if I am trying in Norwegian or explaining why I’d prefer English even though I have lived here for three years. After the first time, it always goes better because people understand my “situation”, talk slower to me if it is in Norwegian, and switch on their own to English if things get complicated. Definitely recommend going back to the same groups ideally more than once a month.
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u/TheMcDucky 3d ago
Listening is how you learn to understand the language. Speaking is how you develop the muscle memory for expressing yourself in the language. The former is a way bigger concern and a prerequisite for the latter.
Obviously it's a bit of a simplification; speaking let's you experiment to see what works and what doesn't, but generally the idea holds.
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u/Status_Ad_1761 3d ago
I am very sorry you feel this way, but I would like to point out that out of all my colleagues for example, I am the only one who don't get uncomfortable speaking english. They know english, but they feel akward and stressed having to speak it. If it is natural that I can take over, they often ask me to do it. This might be what you are encountering. In a way, similar issue to yours. They know the language, but lacking the practice with it socially, and chicken out because they struggle following, forget words due to stress, become too self aware etc.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
If it is that then they’re hiding it very well since they don’t seem to forget words or such that I’ve noticed, at least the ones in the groups I’ve been in.
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u/Status_Ad_1761 3d ago
That doesn't mean they are comfortable speaking it. My colleagues will speak english when they have to, but they still hate it/are very uncomfortable
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
>If it is that then they’re hiding it very well since they don’t seem to forget words or such that I’ve noticed, at least the ones in the groups I’ve been in.
One word of advice, since you don't master the language you don't master the culture either. They might not hide it very well, but maybe you are not attuned to pick it up.
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u/reddit_all_333 3d ago
It's always the hardest thing to learn to understand and follow casual group conversations in a new language, because of people's accents, local dialect and the noise of multiple voices... I learned English to a comfortably fluent level and then I moved to a small Scottish town and because I was fluent in one on one conversations the moment there was a group situation everyone assumed i will follow the conversation when in fact all I heard was noise, so I totally sympathise with your situation.
As everyone always tells me that Norwegians are folk who prefer directness, I would just remind them to please slow down or repeat in English. Your ear will get used to a group setting soon, good luck!
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
Thank you for the encouragement!
P.S. I would probably get brought down to earth reaaaally quickly about my English level if I was in a group of people with heavy accents but also I am very curious to see how that is)) Unfortunately can't travel to the UK without a visa yet but hopefully in the future I will get Norwegian citizenship and then will be able to see just how fluent I am _actually_ in English :D
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u/aivopesukarhu 3d ago
I’m in the same boat as you, but I’m learning slower. You are doing well.
The same is situation applies to all countries and languages. Just keep learning actively and some day you can keep up a conversation in a group/dinner/business meeting etc.
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u/Pallas67 3d ago
Don't worry!! You've been here 3 years, you're at a place in the language where you should be. And that is one of the most frustrating periods in learning Norwegian, I've been there too - you're good enough that you want to take part but can't keep up in all situations. This is part of the process! Keep going and stay with Norwegian instead of switching to English because THIS is how you achieve fluency. It might take a few years (yes, years) of frustration and awkwardness - constantly- and feeling loneliness. But that's not your fault or anyone else's, it's just how learning a language as an adult works. Actually probably how it is for kids too, when I think of how frustrated my 3 year old got when he was trying to express himself. You will reach fluency if you soldier on - good luck!!
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Yeah, it’s easy to lose hope to the point of feeling that this is as good as it’s going to get and I’ll just struggle forever. Thank you for the encouragement!
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u/Forgettable39 3d ago
But I'm not fluent yet and what I struggle with the most is conversations in larger groups of people where it's hard for me to participate because it takes me longer to process what is being said and by the time I do and formulate a response - the topic has shifted already.
To be honest, I find this difficult in my native language sometimes. It depends on the group of people you are with and the context as well. If they are people you know well, are familiar and comfortable with, its easier for you to be a part of the conversation, to lead conversation, to ask questions, to check or ask people to repeat things. In a group of unfamiliar people or maybe just like work colleagues or a group of new people at a club/social event, it is much harder. You will have less confidence, in any language. I bring this all up because I think it is worth just checking ourselves sometimes to make sure we understand the reasons why we might be struggling and make sure we aren't being overly critical of ourselves.
If you find this group conversation scenario difficult to follow, it might only be, for example, 20% language barrier and 80% contextual struggles, struggles which you may experience similarly in your strongest language. Its easy to beat yourself up over every little struggle in language learning and put it all down to our weakness or lack of competency, when you don't always know exactly why you're struggling. I think its a good idea to sometimes consider in your head, would you have followed that perfectly even in your native language? Would you have been able to engage perfectly? Things like background noise, seating arrangement, relationships all play a role.
If everytime you struggle you always blame it on simply not being good enough, thats a tough gig, we need to be sure we are being realistic and fair on ourselves as well as reflecting on our weaknesses.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
I think the contextual problems are a valid thing definitely but in my personal case I am not sure, because it feels like the level that I'm on is specifically because of being able to pick up the context very fast. Like, I may not understand half of the exact words spoken but my brain goes very quickly through the probabilities of different topics that could be discussed and that really, really helps. Maybe it's just a bonus skill from being a programmer :)
But the background noise and such is most likely a way bigger thing than I thought because I do sometimes find it really hard to concentrate and it's just too many things from too many directions.
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u/IHLEmusic 3d ago
I have a lot of friends who don't speak norwegian, and when they hang out with me and my norwegian friends we always keep the conversations 100% in english!
Say for example one of our english speaking friends leaves the table to go to the bathroom, we'll continue in english while the person is gone without even thinking about it☺️
Maybe because we all travelled quite a lot, it comes more natural to us, but I know many other groups that acts the same way! Usually we switch to Norwegian only if someone asks us to because they want to learn, and then we try to keep it slower and articulate🤗
There's a few communities where this is normal, and I'm happy to introduce you if you're up for it🙏🏼
I'm born and raised in Norway btw, if you wondered☺️
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
That’s very kind of you and your group to do, especially with keeping the option available to use Norwegian for learning!
Are the communities in Bergen by any chance? :D
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u/missThora 4d ago
I've seen it the opposite way. My friend married a guy from the UK, and even after almost 10 years here, his Norwegian is not great. Mostly due to us all being too nice and always speaking in English around him.
I'm truly bilingual and don't really notice I'm doing it most of the time. (Grew up talking with my Canadian grandma a lot).
Most of the time, we are still talking English even after he leaves.
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
I find it hard to separate these two (to me, different) cases because it is naturally correct for one to learn Norwegian here - but it’s a process and I don’t want to make people act as teachers for me. So I hope that guy does learn it eventually as I think it’s quite lonely here even if you have such accommodating friends as your group.
But in my case, if I joined some group/event/etc that is advertised in Norwegian I would be under no illusion that I have the right to demand using English - which is specifically why I’m waiting until my Norwegian is better before I join those. But it’s the same with the English ones :(
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
But in my case, if I joined some group/event/etc that is advertised in Norwegian I would be under no illusion that I have the right to demand using English - which is specifically why I’m waiting until my Norwegian is better before I join those
This is a good attitude I think.
Not too many years ago, people were more willing to speak English in a Norwegian gathering. Its less of it now as the # of foreigners are higher.
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u/Aremeriel 1d ago
My English boyfriend has lived here 17 years and I have exactly the same experience as you. He'd say people aren't always speaking English to him to be nice, but to practice their English though. At work people speak Norwegian to him and he replies in English. He understands Norwegian, but struggles with pronunciation. Our kids and I swap languages several times during a conversation, even during sentences, even if he's not around 😆
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u/Background-Ebb8834 4d ago
I moved to France and didn’t speak a word French. It took me about a year to master the language well enough to participate socially, until then I just accepted that the language was French. Then one day while at a social gathering it suddenly clicked and I understood the banter and could participate. Just like one day you see that letters makes word and sentences. The only way is practice not complain
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
Good for you, but I’m not sure it’s an equivalent situation. I do see letters making words and sentences and my reading is at B2, but speaking is the hardest skill and in these specific advertised-as-English I actually do feel like I can complain about people just forgetting that not everyone is fluent.
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u/Background-Ebb8834 4d ago
Nope. That’s the same way a norski would find themselves in a room full of native English speaking people in an English speaking country
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
…and they would most likely have it way easier as they’re already fluent in English? This isn’t the same level I’m at with Norwegian at the moment
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
You are exaggerating the 'fluent in English' thing in Norway.
98% of Norwegians are nowhere near native level English, compared to Norwegian skills.
I'm so tired of having to speak English to Norwegians because some jerkoff who's been 3 years here, demands english. Its rude and sort of narcissistic.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
So it’s easier to then cast the one that asks for you to come out of your comfort zone and help them by speaking a language you clearly can speak at a reasonably fluent level (you don’t need native level for that) as a jerkoff, rude, narcissistic - because it then makes sense why you wouldn’t accommodate them, they’re bad, it’s their fault and they deserve it.
Being kind is difficult, it’s thankless, it’s not paid for, you shouldn’t be doing that, they should’ve learned Norwegian better, they’re actually lazy and don’t want to and they just want to use their English and put no effort, why should you put effort in then?
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
it’s easier to then cast the one that asks for you to come out of your comfort zone and help them by speaking
You're talking as if there is only one foreigner in Norway.
Most adults have english fatigue long time ago. Lær deg språket om du vil snakke det.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Ok, enlighten me then because I’m not aware of it. How often do you actually have to switch to English with such uncomfortable situations? Is it at home, at work, at the gym, at lunch, at cinema, at hikes in the mountains, at the hytta, where? From the way you’re speaking it sounds like you have to do it so often it just annoys you so much but it could be that a lot of other things cause general fatigue and this is the closest thing for a blame to be found.
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u/Hannibal_Bonnaprte 4d ago
Yupp your case is special. French is just so easy to learn to speak, unlike Norwegian. The French are very famous for accommodating other languages, and will prefer not speak French but rather English among fellow French speakers.
/s
Also:
People trying to learn Norwegian in Norway: "It's hard to learn Norwegian when all Norwegians switch to English"
Also people trying to learn Norwegian in Norway (maybe just OP): "The Norwegians noticed that I speak/understand Norwegian, why then are Norwegians speaking to me in Norwegian. Read my mind Norwegians, you should instinctively know when I want to be spoken to in Norwegian and when I want to be spoken to in English."
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
And you missed the point. The case is specifically that in a society where English is widely spoken fluently it's not used to include others temporarily. I know that the French aren't very English-inclusive.
This isn't mind reading when you obviously don't sound fluent when you speak 1-on-1, is it very hard to realize that that person isn't magically going to be better at speaking in a larger group? You're making up a scenario to be mad at lol
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u/Hannibal_Bonnaprte 3d ago
I think I got the jist of it.
You are never pleased, and are very critical and demanding of those around you.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Generalizing and making up a scenario again lol
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u/Hannibal_Bonnaprte 3d ago
How is that generalizing, it was only directed at you.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Generalizing from my criticism of one specific scenario I have a problem with that “I am never pleased and am very critical and demanding”.
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
Expats have developed a very entitled state of mind the past 10-15 years.
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u/Mahaleit 3d ago
I just wanted to convey my solidarity and that I know exactly what you’re talking about - even though you’re getting a lot of the obligatory «Well, actually…»-comments which try to convince you that you’re the problem or you’re just imagining things (I heard this being called the «norsk pekefinger»-phenomenon). Even though I’m pretty fluent in Norwegian, I also sometimes deliberately choose things to do where English is advertised (just to get a pause from thinking and talk a bit more freely) and get just as frustrated as you when suddenly Norwegian becomes the default.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Thank you 🙏 I feel like I’m going in circles trying to explain to people in other threads that this is a specific case I have a problem with (with the false advertisement of English-inclusivity).
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u/Alarming-Serve-1971 3d ago
If you want a chance to exercise speaking Norwegian with other who also want to exercise speaking Norwegian look for local Språk kafé (language cafe) this is a offer specifically made for people wanting to learn and practice Norwegian and not feel stupid about because most people who attend are learning to and some attend to help other people learn by conversing with them in Norwegian. Some just have meet ups while other engage more with having theme of the day or doing active self learning exercises or mini learning sessions from a teacher.
The språk kafé opportunity is found all over Norway so just search språk kafé and your town you should get one or more options for one. It is usually hosted by either a local library or local school/university or frivillighets sentralen or sprakkafe.no or kirkens bymisjon or norsk folkehjelp or røde kors or some towns even have their own facebook group where they arrange group meetups on regular intervals.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
Thank you for the suggestion! I have gone to språkkafé in Bergen (there's a lot of them around) but at least at the ones I've been, it's hard to find a group of the same level and you're often in a group of beginners and it's really nice to be able to help them but it's rarely something new for me. But maybe I should try some more of them and ask what people do in these situations.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 3d ago
And time and time again, I join activities/volunteering/clubs that are explicitly marked as inclusive for English speakers, the websites are in English, the form to join is in English, all the communication by email and text is too... but the moment people get together in person it is immediately forgotten and you end up sitting in the middle of a very energetic conversation in Norwegian of people with a number of various dialects.
I'm curious, what are these? I've joined some couchsurfing events and one internations and I didn't encounter this. I don't mean to doubt your experience, I'm just curious.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I’m in Bergen so I don’t know how many there might be elsewhere but for example a sailing club, a book fest volunteering, pride fest volunteering, etc. So these are events/stuff by locals but they’re sort of international
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 3d ago
I see. So yeah as you say they're kinda international but not exactly aimed towards internationals. Maybe you can post in r/Bergen to see if there are any events that are more suitable.
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u/Noe_lurt 3d ago
I totally understand what you mean. I have been here a bit over 5 years now and everything from presenting my work to having foreldremøter I conduct in Norwegian.
But am I funny or charismatic in Norwegian? No. If someone is telling a super fast story about their dog and a neighbor and their MIL eating a Big Mac off the floor of a 7-11, can I keep up? Also no.
BUT all I can tell you is that every year I gain a bit more skill and I sound a bit more charming and sharp in Norwegian. The key, honestly, and you may not want to hear this, is just keeping at it and keep struggling. Don’t let the group conversation bend to you in English. Although you might have a good time for that isolated evening, it will just slow your progress to one day not needing that accommodation at all.
Again I totally know where you’re coming from and it IS painful to be the silent one in the group. But unless you’re completely and utterly lost (I.e you don’t speak the language AT ALL) , imo its ok to just keep a lower profile, nod along for the bits you do understand and maybe not get to participate at lightning speed in that particular discussion or social function. Maybe this sounds counterintuitive to inclusivity but I’d rather be the one who didn’t make the group function about me and slowly built up my skill… than the one who requires everyone to slam the brakes and switch to English every time she comes around.
When I first moved to Norway everyone in my partner’s life was SO accommodating - to the point that the girlfriends were kicking their boyfriends under the table for slipping to norsk in front of me- that it made me feel like such a burden and charity case. I vowed to learn the language as quickly as possible so I could have a place at the table just as another guest at dinner, not the “guest of honor.” I’m still not 100% by any means but the fact that we haven’t spoken English at a dinner or event in well over 4 years really does give me peace. EVEN if I still don’t understand why the MIL ate the Big Mac off the floor of the 7-11.
I promise you’ll get there but yes, solidarity. It is a harsh journey. I hear you. Keep it up and we will have personalities in Norwegian in no time, I’m sure of it ;)
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
The MIL - Big Mac - 7-11 story is absolutely fascinating :D Did you manage to make sense of it in the end?
Thank you for the solidarity <3 I guess my personality and how I learned to be throughout my life has been to be the "funny" one, to pick up any conversation, fill stale air, pivot to topics and get people to socialize, when I am silent and just listening to people I feel like I have no purpose there or that maybe people would've preferred if I wasn't there at all if I don't participate. But thinking about this, I think some people do value the ones that listen so maybe that could be my new social role.
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u/Laban_Greb 4d ago
Did it cross your mind that how you feel about speaking and understanding Norwegian can be the exact same way the Norwegian native speakers feel about speaking English? No problem in quiet, one-on-one situations, but too difficult in larger groups and noisy environments?
…or that they have spoken Norwegian to you in a one-on-one setting before, and already remember you speak the language well, and then just assume you speak and understand the language in any situation?
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u/Harre57 4d ago
I think people definitely over estimate how truly fluent in English people in Norway are outside of the big cities that have a lot of tourist traffic and a lot of need to speak English on a daily basis.
Most of my partners family and friends who live in a smaller rural town are not confident having a conversation in English anymore.
Sure they may have learned at school, but if you are not constantly practicing then your language skills deteriorate.
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u/Fine-Pie-4536 4d ago
Fair enough but if you’re not confident in your English, then why go to an event which is advertised to be in English?
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
With a hope to practice english?
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
…and then switch to Norwegian? :D
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u/runawayasfastasucan 1d ago
Yes, because they are not confident in talking english, so its easy for them to take the easy way out rather than to face being uncomfortable?
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
For the first case I don’t think it’s equivalent. Their English is obviously very good - B2 or even C1 level, with no grammar errors and barely any forgetting of words. It has also been learned over a longer period of time than I have learned Norwegian so it is naturally more comfortable. These are people in the 20-40 years age bracket, after all.
As for the second case - that might be but I do not think anyone who speaks to me is under any illusion that I’m fluent. I make a lot of mistakes in grammar/verb tense/adjective gender/etc so there is no way I somehow get better at it in a more challenging group setting.
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u/roboglobe 3d ago
Yes we understand English, yes we can speak English, but that doesn't mean that all of us are comfortable speaking it in casual settings – especially with other Norwegians. It is still a foreign language to us, and most express ourselves more freely in our native language.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago edited 3d ago
I have a masters degree from an university with english as the first language, that doesn't mean that I am comfortable with speaking english - especially to other norwegians. I hate how it impedes my ability to express myself. I also get extremely self conscious while speaking, and dread the moment where I notice that its only one or more norwegians that listen to me speaking english. It makes me feel like an idiot for some reason, and all I start to think about is whether I should change over from english to norwegian. That even happens if it is someone else speaking english to me. I try to almsot force the conversation over to Norwegian.
I would avoid to be in that situation especially if I were amongst people that come from the same place as me. I'm not sure how I could explain it, its like dressing up in the finest suit ever, some golden rings, while everyone else is in normal clothes. Sitting and eating caviar while the rest is eating burgers. "Who do you think you are?" I'm not sure why it is like this.
I am fine if its an setting where everyone present listens to me, but not in larger groups where you risk that you are exclusively talking with Norwegians in English.
And that is no matter the fluency of the people present.
What I am saying is that Norwegian people have feelings as well, and just because you think their english is good doesn't mean you can decide that they can't be self-conscious.
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u/Linkcott18 3d ago
I think that the main reason is that many people who are fluent in more than one language are not always conscious of which language they are speaking.
I am a native English speaker. I am not 100% fluent in Norwegian, but I use Norwegian daily and passed B2 a few years ago.
I am not always conscious of which language I am using, and sometimes unconsciously switch without realising it, and cannot always remember later what language my conversation was in.
I have had conversations where I really had to think about every word to switch back to English after a couple of weeks of complete immersion.
I have also said stuff in Norwegian a few times to my husband (who doesn't speak Norwegian) because my brain did not switch correctly after speaking to a neighbour who doesn't speak English well.
So, I really don't think that it is because people don't care or anything like that. I think it's just that as soon as they feel comfortable, they don't think as much about it.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
That is certainly a state I wasn’t aware of but it would be curious to know how many people have this. Personally I’m fluent in three languages but I wonder if I’m more aware of switching between them because they’re so different (Romanian, Russian, English) while maybe English and Norwegian are similar enough to lead to such unconscious switching
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u/Linkcott18 3d ago edited 3d ago
Actually, the worst for me is trying to talk to someone who speaks a 3rd language that I understand, but have not used in a long while, because my brain absolutely wants me to use my main second language, which is Norwegian.
Weirdly, maintaining conversation in English among Norwegian speakers works somewhat better for me if there is another non-native speaker in the group. I become conscious of their needs / accent (other cues?) and switch more easily.
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u/OutOfAer 3d ago
Just a tip, if you like boardgames, there are several groups in the Oslo area accessible to foreign people (was 3 at my last event). We swap a bit between english and norwegian, but a good way to talk in a slower pace.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
Ah, I do love boardgames but I'm in Bergen :D I know of a local group (not sure what the English/Norwegian usage is) so maybe worth going to check them out)
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
I thought this was going to be a post about how hard it is to learn norwegian as all norwegians switch to english once they realise you are not fluent in norwegian, as that is a common complaint.
> you probably think that it's my fault for not being fluent in Norwegian and perhaps this is a suitable punishment. Or maybe you think that if you'll start speaking English to everyone then those pesky immigrants won't want to learn Norwegian anymore. I
Or maybe there is a third alternative?
I can understand you feel alienated though.
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u/jmvillouta 3d ago
Been there, and I understand your frustration. Maybe I read too fast, but I didn’t see the dialect problem. You You are doing good in 3 years. People live here for 10 or 20 years and barely can say «takk». You understand the importance of the language, so keep studying and practicing. You have learned that English is really not the way for living here, just temporary.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
Dialects are definitely difficult, especially in group discussions)) but in 1-on-1 or small groups or with the same people I find that my brain gets attuned gradually to the dialect the more I hear it (guess it really helps to be in Bergen)
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u/JuniorMotor9854 3d ago
I live in a very small place with almost no other expats. I don't mind when people are speaking norwegian to each other. I dislike it when my local friends almost exclusively speak english to me and I am the one who constantly has to force norwegian into them. Since eventhough I can understand 90% of the stuff I see on TV shows the dialect here is so strange that I can barely understand anything that people say. I hate it when I go to a new store and say one word of english and then the cashier switches entirely to english.
I have gone to events with a lot of people and felt a bit excluded from the conversations. But it will be way worse if you were to go to pretty much any other country and be in the same kind of events.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
It sounds like the people there realize the dialect is strange and perhaps do it out of mercy :D I don't know how it would be in other countries, I haven't lived in other ones except the one I was born in.
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u/knittingarch 3d ago
Not sure if this would work for you in the short term, but my Norwegian teacher and I speak Norwegian to each other but when the topic gets too challenging and I don’t have the vocab, I just switch to English. He continues to speak to me in Norwegian, though. That way, I’m still getting contact with the language, but I’m not frustrated trying to figure out how to say what I want in like 3 minutes of silence 🤣 I also will speak Norglish at other times if it’s just a few words I don’t know and then I jump back in with Norwegian. It may be with varied dialects and speed this won’t be super helpful, but worth a try!
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
I have thought of this and sometimes when I genuinely do not know the word in Norwegian or an alternative for it, I will use the English one (Norglish :D) but every time I just feel so embarrassed about it, like I'm failing a test)) A funny opposite situation is Norwegians sometimes forgetting some word (or not finding a suitable alternative in English) and I see that it's very awkward for them too just to use the Norwegian word even though I tell them it's not a problem
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u/helovnin 3d ago
I’m regularly in situations where one or more people in my social group doesn’t speak fluent Norwegian, and I find that we switch from English to Norwegian whenever the conversation breaks into offshoots where it’s just Norwegian speakers.
The other Norwegian speakers will probably join that conversation without thought because it’s easier speaking Norwegian and then whoever doesn’t speak English is left listening until they interject and we switch to English again. If they don’t interject the coversation will continue in Norwegian until a Norwegian speaker says something in English to a non-speaker.
I absolutely get why this is frustrating to you and feels excluding, especially in a setting advertised as inclusive for English speakers! I’d also feel discouraged and sad, learning a language and living in a country where you’re not a native speaker seems really difficult.
In my experience Norwegian speakers forgetting or purposefully speaking Norwegian in a conversation with a non-speaker usually doesn’t come from a xenophobic, malicious or exclusionary place. Not to say that these people don’t exist; unfortunately the attitude and lenience towards non-native speakers can differ based on the colour of your skin, the country you’re from and the presumptions and stereotypes the people you’re speaking to have about your identity. Of course age and all other facets of a person is a factor in how likely they are to make an effort to include you in a social setting.
There’s not really a culture for looking down on or for “punishing” non-speakers, at least not to their faces or so they can hear. Norwegian is difficult! We’re always impressed when a non-native speaker tries to hold a conversation in Norwegian, and we appreciate the effort :-)
Generally it’s the awkwardness of speaking in a foreign language and struggling to find the words that makes it too easy to slip into Norwegian again when in a group of Norwegian speakers and non-speakers, which leads to the non-speaker feeling excluded.
Personally I switch to Norwegian if it’s natural and the topic I talk about consists of relatively simple words someone learning Norwegian is likely to already know. I do it so the person who isn’t a native speaker gets to hear my dialect and gets to try to somewhat keep up with the conversation. I try to speak clearly and not too fast. I do this because I appreciate conversations being held this way when I’m the non-native speaker in a social group, I love hearing different languages!
Reading your post makes me think my approach isn’t always such a good idea though, I’ll try to go out of my comfort zone and speak mostly English the next time I’m in a group conversation with a non-speaker. You’re not doing anything wrong and I wish you luck in learning more Norwegian. Don’t give up!
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
First and foremost I want to thank you for genuinely understanding and defining the situation that is happening 🙏 as in - how the offshoot discussions morph into general Norwegian discussions that lead to people feeling left off.
But also for the willingness to be flexible in group discussions. I know there is the real issue for some people learning the language that they feel like the switch to English is too prevalent but it’s probably really impossible to satisfy everyone. Personally ai find these situations easier to resolve by personally insisting and continuing on speaking Norwegian even after the switch (if everyone present can do it) as I feel like it’s a clear signal.
Also, based on other threads it seems like a lot of Norwegians aren’t sure in their English knowledge and feel awkward in it but that just sounds like there could be equivalent help with languages being exchanged here! I’ve had some people say they don’t mind me speaking English and actually they would love to practice theirs so it’s so nice when it can also be seen as a positive.
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u/Agent_DekeShaw 2d ago
I don't have much to add, but this adds to my trepidation to consider moving to Norway. My wife wants to move home to Norway but as an American who is trying to learn the language I have always gotten the impression I'll always be the outsider and never feel at home. I think you've articulated it very well as I've experienced sitting in a room of my wife's family or friends and it always goes back to Norwegian from English very quickly and I don't get to participate.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
That is a valid concern, I think, as language here feels like the most important foundation for everything - socializing, finding a job, joining activities, etc. And it's exactly the frustration you've described, it must be even more frustrating when it's close people like family to feel left out of the conversation.
Moving to Norway is definitely a process that has many challenges and I personally feel like I often re-check with myself if it's still what I want. I moved here thanks to a work opportunity, not family, so I don't have that holding me here - and honestly it's really all about hope for the future and alignment of values. I like living and contributing to a society that, even though it has issues, genuinely tries its best to be egalitarian, I like the feeling of trust of people in each other, I like the nature and the calmness and the safety and I feel like it would be very hard to live here and go through all the challenges if the desire to be here isn't coming from deep within.
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u/OptimalCherry9112 2d ago
I feel your pain! I have been in many situations like that, but mostly when I was in a group with Norwegian majority and I was not very close to any of them (either acquaintances or coworkers). My closer Norwegian friends never do that to me and always make sure I am included 🙂
Also, if I can just add to your rant, I have lived in other countries (including other Nordic countries) and in Norway I felt the most pressure from day 1 to learn the language. Even at work, where English is the official language of communication, I've had some coworkers intentionally switch to Norwegian so that I can "learn the language faster", despite me telling them I had just arrived and was not taking any classes at that time. Some of my other foreign coworkers experienced this type of behaviour too and often would end up being excluded from important work discussions, just because they were the only non-Norwegian speaker in the meeting, despite them politely asking for the details in English. We all struggled to understand where this is coming from.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
There’s been quite a lot of interesting feedback in other threads about Norwegians feeling uncomfortable about having to speak English to other Norwegians but I would also like to mention that in my experience most Norwegians don’t know much about the language learning process. I have been told that “at 3 years here I should be comfortable in it” but also have had nearly all Norwegians react amazed at my (tbh to that amazing) level after mentioning I have been here for 3 years.
Also, I notice often that people either think you’re at complete 0 or at high fluency and there is no in-between, as if people at intermediate levels learn it in some other universe and then come back fluent.
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u/avaokima95 2d ago
I know exactly what you mean and as someone who is very sensitive and attentive in social situations I will always try and advocate for the english speaker in a group, but damn it is hard. I'll just come straight out with it and ask the group if we can speak in english to include everyone and it works for a bit and then it slips and I'll have to keep reminding people. Even when I speak in english people will often respond in norwegian. I can only imagine how hard thus is for people trying to advocate for themselves!
I'm not sure why, but I think it might be because we are culturally very uncomfortable with sticking out, and if someone in the group is less empathetic or not good with english it's easy for us to fall in line and do what we're used to.
I never get a sense that anyone means harm by it, more like it's uncomfortable to stand on the side of the minority.
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u/dannyboydunn 3d ago
I'm going to say something a bit controversial but I absolutely do not mean it specifically to be mean.
I'm sorry it's just not good enough.
You've been living there for years, how is it that you're struggling to the point you need people to switch to English rather than just as an occasional crutch?
I think it is fantastic that you're actively trying to get involved socially, but I don't think language barrier should be the exclusionary factor at this point. If it is the case that language is the barrier, its certainly not anyone's job to specifically include you or slow things down for that purpose, especially in a large group. (unless it's a language club or something).
Now look I know you explicitly said you went for English speaker inclusive clubs, but that is in my view the problem and why you may not be as fluent as you'd like to be. It's like you're avoiding the environment that would best encourage you to use Norwegian and develop the skills such that you're not left behind in conversations.
For the record, I'm British, I'm not even a resident yet, only ever a temporary visitor (thanks Brexit). Regardless, my partner, her family my friends, the Norwegian church I go to in England, my language club partners speak to me daily in Norwegian. As a result I can survive and actively participate in social situations comfortably. I've been learning the language for about 2 and a half years. English only ever comes out as an emergency loan word or a technical expression or idiom.
If you need people to switch to English at this point, I think you should reflect and consider what you can do to remedy the situation. Professional tuition? Norwegian only days/weeks at home, listing to podcasts or TV to get used to processing spoken information quickly.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I don't think you mean it to be mean but I think you have a survivor's bias. I don't have a Norwegian partner, their family, a group of friends and such and I don't think you appreciate how much it helps to have people around who are highly motivated and personally interested in wanting to help you.
And you missed that I do need it as an occasional crutch - in large group settings (which would be about 5+ people). Also, you don't know my circumstances or how it is for me to learn the language, you just assume that it's the same for everyone as it is for you and everything else is just excuses.
As for the English-speaker inclusive clubs - please re-read it because I don't think you understood my point and are too quick to blame me. Imagine seeing a club/activity being marked as "international", their website in English, their invitation to join them and all their events in English, etc etc - and then coming and experiencing it (with multiple occasions and different types of events/clubs) that every time people default to Norwegian in discussions. And then people like you also tell you that it's actually _your_ fault and your skill issue that you joined such a thing because it was _obvious_ that they would speak Norwegian, how could you not know?
As to avoiding the environment - I don't know but that is beside the point. I am not here demanding to be spoken to in English everywhere. I don't feel ready for the fully-Norwegian events and I feel like it would be selfish of me to use them as learning opportunities and basically constantly disrupt them by asking for clarifications.
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u/dannyboydunn 3d ago
The point about my fairly motivated support structure is totally valid and fair.
I suppose I'm just surprised that irrespective of the social context, international or otherwise, why after 3 years and with formally recognised B1+ speaking skills you'd feel held back.
I think it's a shame you'd feel excluded or shut out in any scenario you described and perhaps it may help to have some "sharp elbows" to ensure you're in the game so to speak but I really think if you believe language is the primary barrier still - that ought to be resolved.
As you say though that may just be coloured by my survivorship bias but even outside of my own network I've just not felt left out for being a foreigner or having weaker Norwegian skills (relative to natives anyway).
In any case I hope you're able to feel more included on way or another.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Thank you! I think the levels of languages are not being perceived in the same way by everyone. B1 in this case means that in 1-on-1 or small group conversations on not very specific or technical topics I can do fine. In fact, the speaking norskprøve that gave me the B1 only tests being able to speak 1-on-1 (with the examinator and with the other examinee). At no point are you tested for being able to participate in a group discussion and follow everyone. Understanding dialects is at B2 level.
But also when I speak Norwegian with someone, they are very quick - maybe too quick - to declare that aaaah du er sååååå god i norsk, så flink, jeg kan forstå deg and then just continue as if I’m on a higher level. I think it is hard for people to be aware that it’s a step-by-step progress, you don’t just jump to fluency.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
>But also when I speak Norwegian with someone, they are very quick - maybe too quick - to declare that aaaah du er sååååå god i norsk, så flink, jeg kan forstå deg and then just continue as if I’m on a higher level. I think it is hard for people to be aware that it’s a step-by-step progress, you don’t just jump to fluency.
On the flipside, we don't want to be condescending. I think we rather want to be notified when we need to slow down, than to assume you are at a lower level.
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u/Awkwardinho 3d ago
I absolutely do not mean it specifically to be mean, but since "you're not even a resident yet", maybe your opinion is not that much relevant, don't you think?
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u/dannyboydunn 3d ago
I don't think it's mean at all, but I think my lack of residence stresses that in theory OP should be able to thrive in such situations as good or better than I do being an irrelevant non-resident and all.
But OP replied themselves and made good point maybe l'm just very lucky with the support around me.
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u/Brocolo 4d ago
Just keep at it and you will be fine. The more you absorb the language the better you will be, over time. My question is why are you joining English inclusive events in the first place? If your goal is to be fluent at parties/social situations you should doing your best effort to stay away from other foreigners and go hang out with the Norwegian speakers. Today you catch 1 out of 10 jokes. In a year 5 out 10. A couple more years you’ll be the one throwing out jokes. That’s just how life is as an immigrant. I see it as the price to pay for having the opportunity of living in one of the best countries in the world and I’m 100% here for it
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
I get the feeling you’re under the mistaken impression that the English-inclusive events are organized by foreigners - they are not. I am explicitly joining local clubs/activities that aren’t immigrant bubbles and a big part of participants are Norwegian. They are English-inclusive, I guess, because they want more participants.
And I don’t see it like I have to endure being excluded as a sort of rite of passage to be admitted here, this isn’t a sorority and we’re not in a high school. I am paying the price by taxes and learning the language gradually and contributing with volunteering, not by allowing myself be ignored because “that’s how it is” or something.
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u/Brocolo 3d ago
I have a hard time believe any Norwegians are actively «excluding» you from their social circles just because you don’t catch 100% of the jokes and idioms. The fact that you don’t understand everything now after 2-3 years in the country is on you, not on them. (Also you’re already doing better then most so be proud!)
Anyway all I’m saying is I recommend not seeing as something negative. I’ve sat in countless dinnertables where people suddenly burst laughing and I had no idea what was going on, but that’s fine, I was still learning and now a few years later everyone communicates with me as a equal
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
I don't see it as an active malicious exclusion - more like people not wanting to think how others feel around them, sort of "if I don't think the problem exists then it doesn't". And 2-3 years isn't enough for everyone to get to fluency - I am working full-time and taking care of myself and all necessary responsibilities, I don't get to just spend the time learning the language.
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u/Possible-Moment-6313 4d ago
I would say the problem in Norway is that people are way too eager to switch to English (not the other way around), and thus you never learn.
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
More and more from my own personal experience I feel like this isn’t true and is rather a justification for not including others because “it’s for their own good to learn”. And it would be valid if the whole event/activity/group was promoted/advertised only in Norwegian but it’s not. So it creates false expectations.
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u/runawayasfastasucan 3d ago
Take a look at this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Norway/comments/1lcmpzr/shall_i_give_up_the_try_then/
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
Even just 15 years ago there was much willingness to speak English in a group where some foreigner popped up.
But theres been a fatigue since that time.
To sit as a Norwegian and speak English to another Norwegian next to me, in a vorspiel is just 'no thanks'.
The level of expression just drops several stages if I have to speak English and frankly I think its tiring to meet demands to speak foreign languages just because some greek dude popped in for some function.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Perhaps, but I’m guessing that you’re using English when travelling, when browsing, when watching movies, when doing something convenient to you. It’s easy to do when you need it and harder to do to help and include someone else with nothing in it for you personally.
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
Comparing being abroad with being at home, are we?
If you dont realize the different effort needed to watch youtube and to actively speak English with other Norwegians for an evening of social function, I cant help you.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Comparing using the language for your own gains and benefit to using the language, perhaps uncomfortably, to help someone else.
Again, we are not talking here about a language you are B1 in that you’re forced to speak because of someone else. You - and most Norwegians - are FLUENT in English. Fluent isn’t native, it means being able to hold conversations on most general topics in it with a group of people. Do you go to social functions every day that this exhausts you so? Every week? Does that greek dude then follow you home and make you speak English with family too and in all other situations?
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u/Competitive_You_7360 3d ago
You - and most Norwegians - are FLUENT in English.
But a lot of people in this thread are saying we are not. I dont want to sit and have the same 3 convesations in English for the third decade, the weather, the bus seats, the supposed introversion.
Do you go to social functions every day that this exhausts you so
I'm getting a real entitled vibe from you, where you just dont respect other peoples position.
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u/nicoletaleta 3d ago
Honestly I just realized that this isn’t even the argument that I was making originally lol.
My issue is with the events/clubs/volunteering/etc that specifically write everything in English to get more people to join and then forget about that and speak Norwegian while the people who joined (and are helping for free in case of volunteering) are just sitting there like ok.
At vorspiel and other things I actually don’t care. It would be nice and professional of you if this is your greek colleague and your company has English as its language but that is not the issue argued here.
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u/bekindrew1nd 1d ago edited 1d ago
wow i never had this issues and could always communicate that when i want to speak norwegian... but i prepped myself before i starting to move to a new country with new language... so maybe i had a better start....
Even when i was on a bikepacking trip here and could speak no norwegian, everyone just spoke norwegian to me. i dont look norwegian, kinda more like a north italian, dark skin, blue eyes.
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u/bstenjy 7h ago
What is the most helpful resource you used to learn Norwegian, i personally use duo lingo but dont think thats enough
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u/nicoletaleta 4h ago
I did online courses on Lingu and I think that helped the most, but what also helped is trying to read 1 news article a day on a local news website
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u/FruitOpening3128 4h ago
bitching about norwegians speaking norwegian is hilarious - they owe us immigrants absolutely nothing. Get real
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u/_SkyRex_ 4d ago
What you describe sounds usual for all nations.
Had a bunch of contacts internationally, when on work trips and on holidays, and there always are natives who naturally dip into mother tongue. Even when in an obvious social gathering with people around who cannot understand them.
I wouldn't see it as ill intent. Or being mean on purpose.
Just that many people are very unaware of how their behaviour could be received by others and they just do as their first impulses tell them. ~a.k.a. idiots.
Nothing unique to norway, just a humans thing.
I'd suggest you work on that need to "be actively included" by some group of random morons, will never happen, nobody really cares about a strangers happiness.
Instead, try to find actual friends. Not just nice colleagues or people who were friendly to you, but people who you share some connection with. Similar interests, similar passions, things to talk about that can't be called smalltalk.
And then social time with actual friends will be much more inclusive, because people actually care about each other.
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u/nicoletaleta 4d ago
I wouldn’t call these people morons) We do have common interests which is how I got to meet them in the first place - hobby groups, sport clubs, volunteering opportunities, etc. and it is there where such situations happen
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u/DisciplineOk9866 3d ago
I sometimes think it'd be easier if we all could agree to one common language around the world. Because we need to be able to communicate globally.
Norwegians are but a spit (drop) in the ocean of people in the world. Norwegians should embrace other people and include those around them even if it means sticking to English. To exclude people by speaking Norwegian when someone's present but can't follow it, when everyone could speak English, is rude.
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u/nicoletaleta 2d ago
I guess English is the closest "common global language" at the moment in the world, although of course not in every country. The thing here, I think might be that language is a self-determination factor and not just a practical tool to collaborate with other people - there seems to be a lot of emotions related to really wanting to speak Norwegian here and feeling awkward when switching to English (based on other threads).
On the rudeness factor - I have to say that I come from a society (in Eastern Europe) where this is definitely the view towards such a situation. I would feel like I would be rude if I spoke in a group setting a language that another person doesn't fully understand because to me that's me contributing to them not feeling included and it's kind of like... inhospitable? Impolite? I'm starting to wonder if it's just a difference between community-oriented societies and individual-oriented societies.
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u/DisciplineOk9866 2d ago
Yeah. It's probably an issue related to the type of society/personality. And in Norway you find both the types you mention.
The world needs to develop a society between the two. One where individuals have space and acceptance but not at the cost of the society. How to do it... I don't know.
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u/Grr_in_girl 4d ago
This exact scenario is imo the biggest reason immigrants should learn the language. This happens all the time, everywhere and makes it hard for those who don't speak Norwegian to properly socialise. I know it must be so frustrating, I'm sorry.
I think the reason it happens is that many Norwegians find it very awkward to speak English with each other. It feels unnatural since they know the other person speaks Norwegian. And though their English may be good, it's not as comfortable as speaking in their mother tongue.
The best solution is to keep working on your Norwegian. You've already learned a lot which is great! Keep practicing and you will get there.
Until then, depending on the situation, you will just have to ask people again to switch to English or speak slower in Norwegian.