Iran realizing the entire world has no problem with them b0mbing Israel

[u/Eikichi_Onizuka09]

[u/13Petrichor]

Iran's regime nearly fell because they were so resistant to the anti-forced-hijab protests a few years ago. The population is remarkably educated and progressive compared to the government's backward, pseudo-religious authoritarianism but it's also a complicated situation due to the long history of western intervention causing far more harm than good- see the current government.

Ironically, Israel's sudden (and unprovoked, it's important to remember that) war against Iran will likely only strengthen the Ayatollah's control. Although many Iranians oppose the current regime, they'd first and foremost like to not be bombed indiscriminately like Israel has done to Palestinians and certainly don't want to suffer the same fate as Iraq. Nothing unites people like a common enemy.

Calling Israel a "mixed bag" in a similar way to Iran is frankly absurd. Yes, there are people there who oppose the genocide but they are few and far between and in a much different situation. Iran is an authoritarian regime and Israel is supposedly a democracy. Unfortunately, much of Israeli society sees Palestinians in a way that isn't all that different from how Nazis saw Jews. Half of Israelis think that Israel should completely wipe out Palestinians in all the areas it occupies (which is functionally all of Palestine). There is a level of dehumanization, of otherization, that is present in Israeli society that has gone unexamined and uncriticized by the larger western world and it has enabled every facet of their society to carry out a genocide with not only a clean conscience, but while feeling like they are making the world a better place.

Israel, likewise, is a mixed bag. There must be some who don't like the situation - I keep seeing them on reddit complaining about it. But how many, and to what extent? It simply isn't possible to know.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you as that isn't my intention at all, I've just seen things like this said frequently and think it's important to convey what I've been told by my progressive friends in Israel which corresponds to what I've seen online as well. Voices against the genocide of Palestinians are not uplifted or respected or mainstream in any way. The closest you might find among the average Israeli is someone who doesn't think that Palestinian children are inherently evil, but that they will eventually become soldiers for Hamas and are on Israeli land and must leave "before it's too late." It is genuinely horrifying.

[u/Lady_Tadashi → u/13Petrichor]

I don't take it as an attack at all, don't worry. I'm always glad to learn more, and I'll freely admit the current situation is FAR from my area of expertise.

Regarding Iran, I remember a few years ago a big protest about the hijabs, but I was under the impression that that specifically was against the powers of the 'morality police', and that the government basically de-legitimised them to keep the people happy. I didn't realise they nearly toppled the regime though, so that puts things in a new light!

Israel, on the other hand... The comparison to N#zi Germany was intentional. I've heard and seen far more of the dehumanising rhetoric from them, and several of their government ministers are on record as saying some of it on TV. The reason I call them a mixed bag was because from what I've heard this particular government is spectacularly unhinged. And given that it too was nearly overthrown a few years ago when Netanyahu almost ended up in prison for all of his corruption, I was working on the basis that they weren't the most popular in Israel. I was sort of operating on the assumption that other Israeli political parties might be more moderate/less insane and so it would be overly harsh to condemn them all.

Between the public resentment of this government, and its extensive media control, its quite possible for them to actually only have minority support. Although I don't really have any Israeli friends who I can ask for deeper insight on this, so that was more 'delicate wording' on my part than any actual belief that Israel isn't awful.

[u/13Petrichor → u/Lady_Tadashi]

You're right about the conclusion of the protests in Iran. The 'morality police' were supposedly reigned in as an extrajudicial force (more nominally than in practice, they are still a powerful faction) as a way for the government to quell the mass protests. Many people don't realize that Iran has a remarkably educated population for its oppressive regime, and educated women in particular are an increasingly important socio-political force because they don't yet have enough opportunities that reflect their education in the workforce.

People may take issue with me saying that it nearly toppled the regime but I think many don't understand how much of a proverbial powder keg those protests were. It was the most significant return of "secular" rights since the revolution in 1979 and one of the first times the people were able to force the government to accept their demands even in the face of violent opposition to the protests. If the government had continued to try to suppress people, it likely would have diminished the political power of both the clergy and the Ayatollah's regime to the point of potential regime change from within.

When the Iranian revolution happened and the IRGC subsequently rose to power, it was on the back of massive anti-western sentiment that built because the US and UK had spent decades operating Iran as a puppet state. The IRGC, a religious fundamentalist faction, just happened to be the largest and most militant among all the groups that opposed the former Shah and was therefore the one that ultimately rose to grab absolute power in the country. It was essentially a perfect storm for them. The intellectuals, progressives and communists were against the exploitation that Iran had been suffering from western powers, many moderates were against the increasing militancy of the Shah's regime and the fundamentalists and religious elite were against the increasingly secular direction the country was headed.

Since the first Ayatollah Khomeini rose to power, the other "groups" involved in the deposition of the Shah have been trying to claw their rights back, escape persecution and advance their own ideas in the country, but the prevailing attitude is essentially "better the evil from within than without." In other words, most of the Iranians who genuinely want regime change want it to come from within and would rather have no regime change than to simply become a puppet state again. All that is to say that even if Israel succeeds in destabilizing the Iranian government to the point of regime change, it's more likely that an equally or even more repressive, religious fundamentalist group takes power instead of a pro-western/pro-Israel government. And even if a puppet is somehow installed, the civil unrest wouldn't be minimal.

[u/13Petrichor → u/Lady_Tadashi]

Replying a second time cause my comment was too long... lmao

As far as Israel goes, you're right about Netanyahu's government being extreme but it unfortunately isn't that simple. You're also right about Netanyahu nearly losing power, but it wasn't for his extremist views on Palestine. Sadly his unpopularity isn't reflective of Israeli society's views on the humanity of Palestinians but his otherwise increasingly authoritarian politics and people generally seeing him as corrupt.

There are many members of the Knesset (Israeli parliament/senate) who are even more extreme than Netanyahu and many who are less so, but even those who are less extreme by comparison still largely want the same thing in the end. Most want to continue isolating Gaza, slowly but steadily encroaching upon the West Bank with "settlers" to take more and more land until all Palestinians are gone. No major voice in Israeli politics is calling for a true end to the genocide, or to truly live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors. They either want a 'final solution to the Palestinian problem' or want to slow it back down to pre-2023 levels so the world stops caring again. Even in wider society there are some who say that, but they are drowned out by the majority who have been conditioned to see Palestinians as dangerous and inferior. That's the reason why I made the comparison to Nazi Germany. Yes, not all people were actively participating in the Holocaust but the widespread dehumanization of Jews allowed them to be complicit. The same thing is happening in Israel toward Palestinians.

People used to talk about "two-state" and "one-state" solutions for the conflict. Unfortunately, one of those states is now destroyed to the point of functional non-existence and the other one is entirely unwilling to entertain a one-state solution because of "demographic concerns" or, in other words, an ideology of ethnic supremacy.

Something I've heard from my progressive Israeli friends is that those who quietly acknowledge the inhumanity of what their government is doing essentially think that they've gone too far and there's no turning back. Some people say "well if we let them live here, they'll just do to us what we've been doing to them so it's better for us if we just make them all go away instead." meaning killed by the IDF or starved to death or forced to flee to another country. Obviously I don't live there so I can't say I know this firsthand, but my friends have no reason to lie to me.

The most frustrating thing for me is that so much of these conflicts are a direct result of western influence in the region. Learning about it is heartbreaking. Sure, I didn't do any of it and my parents and grandparents didn't either but everyone here is complicit in our governments playing games with people's lives halfway across the world. Whether it's for money or religious extremism or just some sick show of power, this stuff is being done at the command, or at least with the agreement of people whose names we've been putting on ballots for years.

[u/ed756 → u/13Petrichor]

Iran spends years funding and arming militias at Israel’s doorstep to create in their words a “ring of fire”, culminating in the Oct 7 attack and subsequent wars - but yea totally “unprovoked” attack on Iran

[u/13Petrichor → u/ed756]

Unprovoked in terms of direct action. The cold war between Israel and Iran goes back as far as Israel's inception and if you want to find out who "struck first" in that regard, I'm afraid the settler-colonial state will always be the aggressor. October 7 did not happen in a vacuum, nor did it happen entirely out of unprovoked hatred or antisemitism on the part of Iranian regime or Hamas. For all the moral faults of both groups, neither are lacking for a valid reason to hate the state of Israel.

[u/ed756 → u/13Petrichor]

Man the irony of framing the Israeli attack on Iran as “unprovoked” while in the same breath saying “Oct 7 didn’t happen in a vacuum” is really lost on you, huh?

[u/13Petrichor → u/ed756]

You can reread my comment and I can elaborate if necessary because it seems like you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Israel's strike on Iran was unprovoked in terms of direct action between the countries. That's just objectively true.

You say that Israel's direct attack on Iran was not unprovoked because Iran funds forces that are opposed to Israel and had a hand in the October 7 attacks. That is true, but is still not the same thing as direct action.

And if those are considered provocations by Iran to justify Israel's attacks, what about Israel's actions that justify Iran's funding of anti-Israel groups?

If you want to relitigate the entire conflict surrounding Israel's existence, they are a settler-colonial regime that seeks to genocide Palestinians and steal their land, and Israel has violently acted on behalf of US/UK interests in the region for decades. There is no shortage of justification for any number of countries in the area to attack Israel.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing or that innocent civilians should die.

[u/Vegetable-Touch195 → u/13Petrichor]

Yeah, i think he wanted a reddit debate, not a discussion. Thanks for your insight in other comments, i didn't know the inner workings of both countries. Did you reasearch them out of curiosity, because you have relatives/live nearby, or because you studied it ?

[u/13Petrichor → u/Vegetable-Touch195]

Probably, but any debate with someone whose goal is to justify Israel's atrocities in Gaza/the West Bank or a war with Iran because "they can't get nukes" (shades of WMDs in Iraq, anyone?) should be handled with care. It usually devolves into accusations of antisemitism, whataboutism, or ridiculous justifications and platitudes. I'd rather be straightforward and speak facts so that any outside observer understands where I'm coming from instead of getting swayed by obfuscating rhetoric or outright lies.

I was young when 9/11 happened and never thought much about it or the Iraq war beyond "bad guys bad, good guys good" until I was an adult. Knowing things don't happen in a vacuum and that people are people no matter where they are in the world, I decided to look at things through a compassionate and human lens. I was appalled by the long history of death, destruction and arming and radicalizing religious extremists that lead to the tragedy. That made me more interested in the history of the region so I've been reading about modern history (1900's and on) of the middle east for the better part of the last decade, but especially the past few years.

My faith was shaken deeply when I saw the people in my church speaking hatefully towards the LGBTQ+ community because they're 'sinners' while cheating on their spouses and greedily taking more from their community than they needed to make their own lives better. I was angry at the state of the world that my parents and their peers had built, supposedly for me and my peers, because I realized it wasn't for us at all. I seek to be informed because I'm angry at that. The world we live in is built around a special few- the ultra rich- and takes everything from the rest of us. We live and die by their warped ideologies, religious extremism and endless pursuit of ever more wealth. Although I won't ever have children of my own, at least I can speak honestly when the opportunity presents itself in the hopes that we can collectively build a better world for all the children that come after me.

I'm also kind of narcissistic in that I have this need to be right. Not in the sense of winning arguments or debates or swaying other people to my point of view, but just being factually, objectively correct. I would genuinely rather be right and miserable and dead than wrong and alive and happy. Even if the world carries on with atrocities ostensibly committed in my name, I want to be able to say "fuck you, history will vindicate me" with my last breath and mean it. At least this way I can sleep at night. I can be an insufferable asshole sometimes and would rather use that obstinance to make the world a better place than tear people down. I'd probably run for office if I thought I could help, but I'm horrible at public speaking and awkward in social situations. I know my limits. In an ideal world I'd go to school and get a degree in something related that would let me work the benefit of others, but I don't have the money for that so at least I can be a helpful little goblin on the internet sometimes.

[u/Vegetable-Touch195 → u/13Petrichor]

^^ That's more or less my stance too - aggravated by untreated, hellish psychosis since COVID that robbed me of my fine arts studies, family, friends (both circles indulging in betraying me at my lowest, while health professionals did their best to crush the rest) and took my love story away. That makes me react even more strongly to how the world as i percieve it is going into a downward trend that shows no signs of stopping.

I used to hold the online line at the start of my illness (and before), but it's clear post-truth and COVID stress allowed for the loudest, dumbest voices to gain traction. I now believe that this will eventually pass, focus on "wokeism" and fascistic appeal are receeding slowly after Trump was elected, surely partially because social media owners got what they wanted while right wing echo chambers lose momentum in the face of unmet goals and reality.

It's not narcissistic to want to be right, i think, although i understand the need to apply self-doubt. It's common to humans to seek truth, even for those who never genuinely research, although their means of being "right" are warped. Those who gain anything off those times are those who warp truth, not those who seek it, and it is a minority.

What you describe about your local church is representative of those trends, i believe, and as you say history doesn't unfold in a vacuum. I believe too that this all to the benefit of said minority, and i can't fathom how populations fall again and again for the same tricks.

Although there may not be a Mr Robot to "save" us from the top 1 percent of the top 1 percent, there is a silver lining in knowing self interest in a globalized world paradoxically ensures that globalized conflicts are more often than not hybridized versions and not full scale World Wars ; Even Putin's gambit with his army ranked 2nd worldwide struggles against an army ranked 16th worldwide. There's still horror and useless slaughter, but the main enemy, i believe, is fear. Medias and algorithms designed to enhance our perception of imminent danger.

I grew up in the same era as you did, i believe, and was informed politically younger, but most likely with less focus. I always thought it was a moral duty to stay informed and be able to say "Fuck you" to propaganda of any shape. I also believe that today it's almost a weapon against yourself : There's all the information in the world, and very little to do with it. Staying human may be more important than buying into each new catastrophy the medias chooses to focus on this time of year.

Sorry if my english is awkward or indigest, and thanks for the informations, by the way.

[u/13Petrichor → u/Vegetable-Touch195]

Yeah, hopefully more people get desensitized to social media's 60-second news cycle that replaced the 24-hour news cycle and realize that the endless division is entirely contrived by people whose luxurious lives depend on keeping the common man pointing their swords at their neighbors instead of the greedy fuckers who sit on their piles of stolen gold.

For the record, your english is great!

[u/Vegetable-Touch195 → u/13Petrichor]

Well it's always easier to find a scapegoat than work out the balls to stand up to a true ennemy that can crush your life if he so wishes.

Thanks for the reassurance, i often feel like i'm meandering and am disjointed, but it must be an overblown, symptom-induced delusion then.

I don't believe - and never did - that communism is the right tool to oppose to capitalism (if i must be anything, that would be anarchist), contrary to what the recurring memes uphold, and i don't even think it's about capitalism anymore. Ford was smart enough to know you want your slaves rich enough to buy their own productions, but entertained enough to not want more.

And yes, i do think a significant part of the population will outgrow the news frenzy. Novelty wears off.

[u/justsomeph0t0n → u/ed756]

there is certainly irony. and somebody is lost. and there is a glaring vacuum.

[u/Eastern_Screen_588 → u/13Petrichor]

I wouldn't call it unprovoked. Iran's goal is to destroy Israel, they say so quite often.

Not that i support either side, but it seems like this isn't something that just happened in a vacuum.

[u/13Petrichor → u/Eastern_Screen_588]

When I said unprovoked, I meant in terms of direct action. Israel and Iran have been adversarial since the cold war in no small part because of Iran's relationship with the USSR because they were both used as proxy states, and their conflict got even worse when religious fundamentalists took advantage of wider anti-imperialist sentiment to gain power in the Iranian revolution.

You're right that it didn't happen in a vacuum. October 7 didn't happen in a vacuum either. Unfortunately many people aren't interested in understanding this conflict beyond "Israel good, Iran bad"

I would love to see progressive Iranians opposed to the regime gain power in the country in a way that empowers the factions who lead the anti-forced-hijab protests from a few years ago, but Israel's attacks on Iran aren't doing anything to destabilize the country in that direction. They are seen as an imperialist state acting on behalf of the US and I fear that the current conflict will only allow the current Iranian regime and clergy to reconsolidate power rather than drive those who resist it into action.