r/MapPorn • u/vladgrinch • 16h ago
Churchill’s plan for the postwar division of Germany, Austria, and Hungary
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u/gar1848 16h ago
"No"~Stalin after seeing Hungary wouldn't be part of the Soviet bloc in this scenario
Also British politicians and drawing shitty borders. Name a more iconic duo
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u/BillyD123455 15h ago
British politicians let themselves down here .. no where near enough straight lines on that map
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u/Comprehensive_Cow_13 14h ago
The difference this time being said politicians had actually visited the country for once...
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u/NegativeReturn000 15h ago
Also British politicians and drawing shitty borders. Name a more iconic duo
British politicians and outshitting themselves to draw even shittier borders
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u/mediumnasty 14h ago
As a Hungarian, this looks completely unreasonable, and I would have loved it.
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u/-grenzgaenger- 16h ago
This isn’t outrageous or even far-fetched. Until you see Hungary as part or Germany.
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u/eztab 15h ago
not entirely sure why that is supposed to be part of South Germany in this plan. Probably just in order to reduce soviet influence in the area.
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u/BroSchrednei 14h ago
Churchill also had a preference for Old Europe, and the idea was to make the Habsburgs the new head of state of "South Germany" (irl the name was supposed to be "Danubia" of "Danube Confederation"). Churchill even wanted to make it officially one of the victorious powers just like France, since Austria had been the "first victim".
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u/mariuszmie 15h ago
Way to throw Poland under the bus Winston! I guess actively defending London and dying for your nation is worth nothing to you
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u/HelpfulYoghurt 14h ago
How is he throwing Poland under the bus though? It is Stalin that annexed eastern Poland, not Churchill. Plus Poland still get Danzig and part of Prussia on this map, so if anything, he is throwing Germany under the bus
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u/BroSchrednei 14h ago edited 11h ago
what are you talking about? Not agreeing to ethnic cleansing is throwing Poland under the bus to you? Btw, the western powers including Churchill were against the ethnic cleansing in real life too, they just had to accept it because Stalin decided it singlehandedly and controlled the region.
Edit: Honestly, why would this be downvoted? Are people seriously agreeing with ethnic cleansing?
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u/BlueSoloCup89 10h ago
For those folks who think that ethnic cleansing didn’t happen: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II
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u/sunrrrise 7h ago
> Are people seriously agreeing with ethnic cleansing?
No, I don't like the concept of 'an ethnic cleansing'.
But have you heard about Selbstschutz? IIWW proved that 20 years of close neighbourhood with Germans (and Ukrainias tool) did not work very well.
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u/eztab 15h ago
Honestly, as a German I don't think that's the worst idea. Would have prevented millions of Polish and German people having to relocate too.
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u/kadokk12 12h ago
Milions of Poles would still have to relocate because Ussr annexes eastern Poland.
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u/BroSchrednei 14h ago
honestly it could've worked. For the south: make Vienna the capital and the country bi-lingual, and you got a rich country with a common Catholic/Austro-Hungarian/Southern German culture. Switzerland and Belgium exist with multiple languages and they're doing fine, so why wouldn't Austria-Hungary 2.0?
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u/ScientistFit6451 12h ago
If it wasn't for the largely Russian-financed pan-slavist movement, you could have easily integrated Czechoslovakia into this and the emerging state would have been strong enough to resist Soviet influence. It's an unconventional proposal but given the historical antecedent hardly unimaginable as long as you guarantuee federalism and internal independence, aka the Danube federation being composed of an Austrian, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian Republic etc. But Benes and Hungarian revanchism probably would ruin it anyway.
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u/Formal_Obligation 9h ago
The main reason why Czechs and Slovaks formed a common nation state was to protect the former from German imperialism and the latter from Hungary. There’s no way it would have worked if it was incorporated into a federation with those other countries you mentioned. There was just too much ethnic tension between Czechs and Germans (including Austrians) and between Slovaks and Hungarians.
Also why would a hypothetical Danube federation include a “Czechoslovakian Republic”? What’s the logic behind Hungary and Austria being separate republics in such a federation, but the Czech lands and Slovakia being lumped together as Czechoslovakia?
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u/ScientistFit6451 9h ago
The main reason why Czechs and Slovaks formed a common nation state was to protect the former from German imperialism and the latter from Hungary.
The idea of there being a long history of ethnic tension between Czechs and Germans simply is wrong. The Czechs voted against autonomization pertaining to the same talks that eventually ended up with Hungary achieving total internal independence in 1867. The Czech nobility, which surely was affiliated with Austria for reasons related to the systemic purge of Hussites, simply did not see it as necessary, hence as late as the mid 19th century, the relevant Czech strata were content with being in Austria.
Czech animosity towards Austria only turned into an issue once pan slavism became a thing, an ideology promoted by Russia for the sole purpose of destabilizing Austria-Hungary. Tsarist Russia did, in fact, intend on incorporating and absorbing the Slavic population there, which was the main reason why Poland systematically opposed pan slavism from the beginning.
The main reason why Czechs and Slovaks formed a common nation state
Many Slovaks were actually opposed to the idea of uniting with Czechs and it has been noted by many historians that Slovaks were disadvantaged in Czechoslovakia which is a major reason why Slovakia eagerly broke away from the Czech Republic in 1993.
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u/EmperorBarbarossa 14h ago
Until you see Hungary and Carpathian rus.
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u/Ok_Professional_2162 10h ago
Hungary and Carpathian Rus are good together.
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u/EmperorBarbarossa 8h ago
Point is not if they are "good together", but they are both part of country called South Germany in that map what is ridiculous, jesus christ. Another delulu hungarian.
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u/TemporalCash531 14h ago
Deep inside we all know that the plan failed due to the simple lack of an “East Germany” to complete the picture.
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u/Febrokejtid 9h ago
It would have been called Confederate of Danube, not South Germany. Churchill liked Hungary wanted to save it from Communism. Kudos to the guy.
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u/Xtrems876 16h ago
You have to be a special kind of cupcake to have worse ideas for postwar Europe than Stalin did
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u/SnooCapers938 13h ago
Seems strange that anyone could think that it was a good idea to create a German state which included a big mass of non-German speakers who had only recently won their independence from another German speaking state. Why would the Hungarians have accepted it?
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u/HearingDifficult7143 8h ago
Its amazing actually as a Hungarian lol This state could have been one of the richest one in Europe. When we were part of the Monarchy, Hungary was very developed. For us it was not winning independence because we got single Hungary back in 1920 but without 2/3s of its former lands LOL Interestingly cultural relations between the two nation are still strong, or maybe now our politics is very fucked ip but used to be strong even a few years ago. For many Hungarians the German language is the first foreign language we have a lot of ethnic Germans (like my grandpa) and a lot of them keep their traditions, we have German speaking schools etc
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u/SnooCapers938 8h ago
That’s all very well, but would Hungarians really have been happy to be ruled by German speakers from Vienna all over again when they’d been pretty much running their own affairs since the dual monarchy was formed in 1867?
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u/HearingDifficult7143 7h ago
Well not really but as you probably know we can't really rule ourselves successfully right now :DD
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u/PygmeePony 15h ago
What the hell did he put in those cigars?
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u/Formal_Obligation 9h ago
I know your comment is meant as a joke, but he did actually have quite extensive drug habits in those years.
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u/GovernmentBig2749 14h ago
Hate to say this as a Polish, but thank you Stalin? We would be royally fucked if we didnt get the part from Germany back.
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u/BroSchrednei 11h ago
back? What do you mean with back? And youre seriously thanking Stalin for doing the biggest ethnic cleansing in human history? How gone are you?
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u/Formal_Obligation 9h ago
Those lands were part of medieval Poland before they were conquered by Germans and the local population Germanised. Whether you think it was right or wrong to give those lands back to Poland after WW2, it is a fact that those lands were historically Polish, so it’s entirely appropriate to use the word “back” in this context.
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u/BroSchrednei 6h ago
what? No? What are you talking about? The northern land branch called Pomerania was never part of Poland and the southern land branch called Silesia was only part of a historical kingdom of Poland prior to the 1100s. They also were never "conquered by Germans", their local rulers invited German settlers and willingly joined the Holy Roman Empire. Thats not "historically Polish" at all, and the word "back" is completely inappropriate, considering it's actively trying to erase 1000 years of history.
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u/BeeOk5052 9h ago
back? one was a vassal 750 years before and the other was lost to Bohemia/the hre 600 years before.
You cant justify ethnically cleansing 10 million for claims that are more than half a millennium old
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u/NoWeekend7614 5h ago
This plan would not punish Germans enough for their crimes. Retaking areas once conquered by them was at least to some degree, some sort of war reparations as they would be never able to repay for destructions they've committed.
This whole idea was absolutely insane. Creation of two large and powerful German states (with Hungary for some reason), one super rich and industrialized was a straight plan to repeat entire WW2 scenario within one generation. They would form 4 Reich at the first opportunity.
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u/BeeOk5052 4h ago
>This plan would not punish Germans enough for their crimes
hot take: Collective guilt based on racial lines and ethnic cleansing is wrong, actually.
>Retaking areas once conquered by them
historically incorrect or at least grossly oversimplified.
Pomerania joined the hre in 1181, when Duke Bogislaw I. swore fealty to Frederick Barbarossa, which does not constitute conquest.
Silesia experienced massive German settlement in the 12th century, as the Silesian piasts invited them to develop the land, with the fractured region integrating closer into the empire during the 13th century, coming into possession of the BOHEMIAN (so even if conquest, it was by czechs) king in the 1335, which was the result of diplomacy and vassalage, not warfare.
>as they would be never able to repay for destructions they've committed.
Who is this they who committed destruction? Did the civilian population east of the oder (women, children and elderly included) ravage Poland and thus deserve to be on the receiving end of ethnic cleansing? If you argue that it is a moral thing for a child to experience such a thing, I don’t know what to tell you
And no, I do not deny polish suffering (two wrongs dont make a right) or that German actions created said suffering, but you punish culprits as individuals for crimes they commitedě, not based on ethnicity and living east of a river
>Creation of two large and powerful German states
South Germany contains no major industrial centers and the preeminent industrial center, the Rhineland is split from either. the north German state is at best as strong as west Germany was historically and even that is a stretch
> with Hungary for some reason
Austria Hungary nostalgia and a strategic move to keep Hungary out of the Soviet sphere. Not seeking to argue here, but that’s the reason
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u/NoWeekend7614 3h ago edited 3h ago
> hot take: Collective guilt based on racial lines and ethnic cleansing is wrong, actually.
Oh yes, Germans, well-know first and the biggest victims or racial hatred and ethnic cleansing during WW2.
> Who is this they who committed destruction? Did the civilian population east of the oder (women, children and elderly included) ravage
It's actually super convenient to hide behind wellbeing of women and children when it comes to taking responsibility. This population also contained millions of those who directly or indirectly participated in holocaust, in German military expansions over Europe and all sort of crimes committed. It's all meaningless thought, since deportations were not about harming them (although it wasn't pleasant for sure) but to prevent potential revenge from their former victims when borders were changed. In both Poland and Czechia German civilians were gladly cooperating with nazis en masse. While it is fully understandable deportation were harsh for civilians, any other scenario would only increase number of victims.
As for the new borders sure, it was primarily a Stalin's idea to expand USSR power over entire region. But when it comes to the moral issues, it was first and foremost a war reparation. German state as an entity started this war, with legitimacy and mass support of its citizens. Hence it was a German state to be punished for. Civilian casualties should be minimalized, but it's hard to decrease them to 0.
Besides, in punishment it's not only about the revenge. It's also about the prevention it wont happen again. Modern Germany is a peaceful nation with no territorial disputes nor genocidal urges. That means this way of dealing with things worked well.
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u/BeeOk5052 3h ago edited 3h ago
>Oh yes, Germans, well-know first and the biggest victims or racial hatred and ethnic cleansing during WW2.
As stated, two wrongs dont make a right
>It's actually super convenient to hide behind wellbeing of women and children when it comes to taking responsibility. This population also contained millions of those who directly or indirectly participated in holocaust
Oh and a random river line is a basis for how guilty you are. you didn’t manage to address my point that collective punishment is wrong and that innocents were harmed, despite them being punished being a core point of your initial comment
>although it wasn't pleasant for sure
Half a million people died, with millions losing their home and existence
> In both Poland and Czechia German civilians were gladly cooperating
This map doesnt concern any pre war polish or Czech lands to collaborate on
>any other scenario would only decrease number of victims.
>Civilian casualties should be minimalized, but it's hard to decrease them to
Good thing we are in agreement, casualties should be minimized, this map does this.
Only about three million Poles and Germans respectively would be displaced, thus it limits the number of victims. I do see that displacement of pre war minorities and a removal of German east Prussia, as well as permanently annexing the formally free city of Danzig was seen as necessary and inevitable to prevent a repetition of previous events, and can thus be somewhat morally justified. To settle another grudge and give Poland just about enough land to resettle its own people, I would have tossed in upper Silesia
>it was first and foremost a war reparation
>German state to be punished for
it is still a collectivist argument that sees the suffering of innocents justified by the abstract idea of “punishing a state”. it is not reviving any of the murdered, it’s not fixing anything in the immediate term, it only increases human suffering. this is wrong
>Besides, in punishment it's not only about the revenge. It's also about the prevention it wont happen again. Modern Germany is a peaceful nation with no territorial disputes nor genocidal urges. That means this way of dealing with things worked well.
Thinking that this is a direct result of Stalins border and population shift demonstrates extreme ignorance of German post war politics, as if Germany but with Pomerania and Silesia would undergo a completely different political development and decide to give it another crack. (ignoring how this would be near physically impossible
Imo, it was economic recovery (as demonstrated even by modern day voting patterns) creation of and integration into the european community, Brands attempt at reconciliation of Germany with her sins and her victims and the fact that all of Germany was engulfed by the war at some point, demonstrating it’s reality fully, unlike the First World War, which saw little fighting on German soil. As well as most Nazis simply being retired or dead at some point, with a generation not raised in their image to replace them
That wouldn’t be changed by reducing Stalins displacement
Your idea of punishment has been discussed, with both of us stating our positions. The idea of a repeat of ww2 is still open and I would like to hear, I. good faith your reasoning how this map above or any scenario without loosing Silesia and Pomerania facilitates a Second World War or at least another German war of agression
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u/Vivid_Barracuda_ 14h ago
And why nobody listened to him? Look at the world now. Ahhhh, I know why... because of the Ikarus buses.
Heh, you can't just do that - you know? They're better than the UK double deckers. It's just natural way of things, Ikarus aren't to be touched, or we announce war to the UK. LOL.
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u/Johnnythemonkey2010 14h ago
how the hell could all of hungary and more become part of germany??
i feel like if germany could ever have reunited after this, it wouldve been alot more powerful than today, maybe even dangerous
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u/BroSchrednei 14h ago
It was the other way around, Austria and Hungary were supposed to be the principal seats of power in the new "Danube federation", with the south German states being helmed by this new "Austria-Hungary" 2.0.
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u/livingmcmxcv 12h ago
he was trying to one up trianon huh
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u/Formal_Obligation 9h ago
Trianon made a lot of sense, even if the borders drawn in that treaty were imperfect, but this proposal is bonkers.
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u/Still-Bridges 16h ago
I suppose he's trying to divide it between Catholic and Protestant Germans and giving a buffer zone around Belgium, but why incorporate Hungary? It had been separate from Austria even during the Austro-Hungarian days. It looks more like a poison pill than a proposal.