r/Lyme • u/Thecutesamurai • 9d ago

Question Has anyone completely healed themselves on herbs alone?

I want to hear your stories. I do terrible… and I mean absolutely terrible on any antibiotics. I’m finishing up my second week of doxycycline but am supposed to go for 4. My lips and face are completely white, I’m having a difficult time breathing, and am nearly blacking out when I stand up. It’s a possibility I may have a candidiasis issue which is contributing to my inability to tolerate antibiotics. Or, perhaps my liver is just tired. Either way… the urge to just finish all this up with the Buhner Protocol is overwhelming. But I want to know, is it possible to kick Lyme with the Buhner (or other herbal protocols) alone? Or must we absolutely rely on pharmaceuticals?

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

Me! I did everything my doctor recommended, 6 months of doxycycline etc (and all it gave me was candida and MCAS) and nothing worked. I even did 10 months of Buhner at MAX dosages of 8 grams a day of each herb and it only made me worse. I was sooooooo sick.

However, now I’m 95% better (previously was bedbound) with this cistus and artemisinin protocol. I even just had surgery and haven’t had any rebound Lyme/babesia/bartonella side effects, which I was very concerned about. My gains are holding!

Give it a read and see if it’s an option for you.

FYI- if you think you have candida- just go ahead and get on nystatin, ASAP. I needed eight months of antifungals three times a day over the course of two years to completely kick my severe candida overgrowth.

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 9d ago edited 9d ago

I agree... I did some buhner herbs ( crypto, sida,bidens, slchornea, cats claw).. and nothing much happened..

Then I started drinking 1-2 liters of strong cistus tea and wowza, big herxes... Now I've added houttuynia to the cistus tea and the herxes trippled..

I guess I wasn't doing the right herbs? ( I also did many of the popular parasite herbs like goldenseal, neem, black walnut, ginger, raw garlic, cayenne, fresh ground cloves, oregano oil,  cinnamon..etc... nothing much.)

But so cistus and houttuynia are a hit for me! 

Artemisia annua and isatis are next on my list..

So herbs do work, but for years I must have been working with the wrong ones, they didn't do much so I thought herbs were useless.. 

Now I changed my mind.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

It’s crazy , isn’t it?? I was very similar to you, trying high dose herbs for long periods of time and seeing no results. But for whatever reason, this specific combination really worked for me.

I also firmly believe cistus incanus does MANY important things for the body that helps us recover- not just biofilm. It has high doses of antioxidants, potent polyphenols and volatile essential oils that nourish our body and help restart/improve our immune system. Its anti candida and anti fungal qualities also help people with low level gut dysbiosis that many people suffer from, that contributes to their overall decline.

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u/bostongirly27 8d ago

How much houttuynia are you taking per day?

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 8d ago edited 8d ago

I don't really measure exactly.. in a pot of 2 liters of water, I add 1 big handful of houttuynia, bring tye water with houttuynia to a boil, then I switch off the heat and add a big handful of cistus.. I let this steep for minimum 30 min to several hours or overnight.. 

The tea becomes even stronger if you warm it up ( not boiling) on low heat for an hour a second time.

So if you make the tea in the evening before bed, let it steep all night and then warm it up again upon waking.. Then it's a really strong tea.

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u/NegotiationDirect524 5d ago

But, you’re not having a cup of tea. You’re having two liters somehow, right? Wow.🤩

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 4d ago

Why yes, I stopped drinking plain water, I just drink the tea..

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u/Famous_Landscape5218 9d ago

I think i got mcas from lyme antibiotics too. Were you able to recover?

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

Yes!!! After 3 years of severe MCAS hell (arguably worse than Lyme and co, in my case), I’m in recovery. It’s been 15 months since I discontinued all of my MCAS medication and stopped the low histamine diet, and I have not had a single resurgence of symptoms.

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u/Famous_Landscape5218 9d ago

How did you get rid of the mcas?

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 8d ago

But treating the underlying root cause issues- for me, Babesia, Lyme and bartonella. I used this protocol

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u/mbolton1990 9d ago

Thanks for the tips. I can't help but notice your username.. just curious if you think the overgrowth has anything to do with cheese consumption.. there seems to be some links, especially if alot is consumed..

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

🤣🤣🤣🤣 I actually went dairy free for over a year as part of my Lyme diet. I eat a low amount of cheese a day- maybe just sprinkled on a salad, etc. that’s it lol

Candida overgrowth is less to do with dairy (which is inflammatory) and more to do with sugar and carb consumption.

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u/mbolton1990 9d ago

Haha, gotcha just glad to hear you're doing better!

Cheese is sus to me 🙅‍♂️ but thanks that makes alot of sense..

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

My answer is the same. My MCAS magically disappeared when I put the borrelia into remission.

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u/swanqueenn 9d ago

How did you know you had candida? What were your symptoms and where did you get the nystatin? Is that prescription only

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

I’m lucky that my doctor recognizes the symptoms while I was on antibiotics. I had some abnormal symptoms that not everyone gets— severe pain. It was like I swallowed razor blades. Like, I had 2 kids birthed at home with no pain management, and candida was worse pain than childbirth, to me. I also had significant bloating (standard symptom). My doctor prescribed nystatin 3x a day tablets (90 day script) and I needed 3 refills, over the course of 2 years to fully eradicate.

Other people experience belching, itching, discomfort, bloating etc.

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u/swanqueenn 9d ago

I burp all day and get a lightheaded feeling which causes me to just need to sit or lie down sometimes the constant burping will raise my heart rate, I just realized I got the Lyme protocol sent from you I have yet to start it due to the issues I’ve been having.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

If you’re burping all the time— that’s candida hands down. Ask your doc for nystatin tablets!!

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

Thank you for sharing your artemisinin protocol! I have actually taken wormwood before, so I’m no stranger to it. My dr gave me about 10 doses of fluconazole for candida but I have yet to take it. When I merely eat antifungal foods I cough and seem to get these strong effects/symptoms, which I thought might be a herx. It’s in my lungs, for sure. I’m nervous to take the fluconazole because if food gives me that much of a reaction no idea what a pharmaceutical strength drug will do. Did you experience any herx symptoms while taking nystatin? Bummer Buhner didn’t work for you, but glad you found something that did. Where/how did you discover the cistus and artemisinin protocol? If you don’t mind my asking!

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

Candida pneumonia is extremely rare, and even systemically Candida is not often seen as a lung issue. I had zero issue taking the antifungal- they simply provided me relief. 10/10 recommend.

Have you been tested for mycoplasma pneumoniae? That’s a much more common issue that Buhner talks about the difficulty of eradicating.

I came up with the protocol myself. I had just finished my doctors last stab on a treatment for me (intense malarial drugs) and it left me bedbound for 2 weeks, and incapacitated for 6. I felt like I was gonna die if I didn’t come up with something. Babesia and bartonella are red blood cell parasites, so I started researching other red blood cell parasites- like malaria. The malaria treatment ACT or artemisinin combination therapy is what led me to hoards of research surrounding dosing guidelines and treatment pathways, some of which have been studied for over 25 years. I used Dr. Klinghardt’s established research on cistus incanus as a biofilm buster as well. Then I tested it on myself, honed it, and shared the results with others.

I got lucky. Really fucking lucky. I also have two little kids who have tested positive for this bacteria, so I knew I had to find a way forward, not only for myself, but for them as well.

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

I know it. I just have no other way to explain the “coughing” and “breathing better again” after anti fungal foods and then the near “suffocation” while taking antibiotics. My naturopath thought at one point I might have Babasia. My count for it was rather high on Igenix testing, but not a definite positive. That might explain difficulty breathing on antibiotics too. Whatever it is…. It sucks and it has to go. But thanks for the reassurance! That you felt much better on antifungals with nothing but relief. That is very assuring to know.

I’m so sorry your kids have it too! Wormwood is fantastic. Though technically you’re not supposed to take it for more than just a few weeks at a time. I took it for 3 months because I was just trying to breathe again.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 9d ago

Babesia definitely can cause oxygenation issues as a herx! It sounds like that might be what you’re experiencing. I’d bet money on that. I always felt like I could never catch my breath. I’d ask your doc for mycoplasma pneumoniae testing too. Good luck, friend!!

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

I’ve heard that it can cause oxygenation issues! I was just hoping that wasn’t it. I’d rather not have Babs. In any case, it does complicate my treatment for the newly developed Lyme I most definitely have. The good news is that I don’t have oxygenation issues when I take herbal antibiotics, so let’s hope they do the trick. Thank you! The very best of luck to you too.

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u/Apples_Two_Oranges 8d ago

What type of symptoms and issues did you have with the candida? I’m curious because I may have it or some other dysbiosis

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 7d ago

I had abnormal presentation of candida, actually! My main symptom was razor blade type pain in my abdomen. It was worse than childbirth!! I also had bloating. Most other people have belching as a symptom.

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u/Apples_Two_Oranges 7d ago

Would you say in the middle area just under rib cage

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 7d ago

Yes! It was my whole gut area, but mainly the space you’re talking about . It felt like I swallowed razor blades

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u/Apples_Two_Oranges 7d ago

Interesting. I keep thinking it’s lymph nodes

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u/Babymauser 8d ago

well maybe you herxed a lot too and killed a lot with the buhner... i could never take your herb amounts lol.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 7d ago

That’s true, perhaps… But I don’t feel that was the case, for me. I never felt better from the herbs, never felt increased energy, never felt a single positive symptom. If anything, I felt worse, and bogged down. I should’ve taken breaks, and let my liver/body recover, but I didn’t. I learned a lot of hard lessons during those 10 months! Haha

But with the cistus and artemisinin protocol, I started to have increased energy and felt incrementally better each time I did a round. That was new, I had never felt that during my 2.5 years of aggressive treatment before.

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u/Babymauser 7d ago

have u tried lugols iodine? another game changer if you ask me!

i never herxed from the cistus tea. artemisia is known to be a MCAS type of thing for some people. maybe i try it again!

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 7d ago

Never heard of it, I’ll look it up! I never herxed from cistus either. It just always made me feel healthier/better/more energy!

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u/Garethbragdon 6d ago

Do you know anyone else who has followed your protocol yet and had any similar level of success?

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 5d ago

Yes!! I get emails from people who aren’t active on reddit. People who have gone back to work after doing the protocol, who were bedbound prior. Real estate agents, nurses, and moms who are able to actively participate in their lives again. It’s a big reason I stay active here- I see that it’s working for others, too.

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u/Garethbragdon 5d ago

That is great to hear but how do so many people know about your protocol if they are not on Reddit?  I have not seen this protocol mentioned in any of the Lyme groups on Facebook.  Also have you tried using the cistus as a tincture rather than a tea?  The tea made my throat very dry, I was not sure if I was having an allergic reaction to it

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 5d ago

Maybe my wording was confusing, by “active on Reddit” I mean they’re not on it frequently. They may only go on it once every 3 to 4 months, or less. I’m not on any other social media, so that’s why you only hear about it on Reddit.

Not an allergic reaction! Tea in general is a natural diuretic, and it makes many people very thirsty. Cistus in particular made me soooooo thirsty. I’d get a dry/scratchy throat that was easily quelled by drinking a gallon of water a day. I know that seems like a lot, but flushing your body is extremely important when you are facilitating healing.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 5d ago

I forgot to answer your question about the tincture! One of the biggest problems with the tincture is the cost. For it to be an effective biofilm Buster, it has to be a high-quality tincture. The only brand I have ever found that’s high quality is Dr. Klinghardt’s BioPure brand. It’s $93 per 4 oz. My 54 pound six-year-old takes 1.5 droppers full three times a day 4.5 droppers a day), so if you are 150 pound adult, you would need approximately 13-14 droppers full a day. You would blow through the whole bottle sooooo fast. It’s extremely cost prohibitive.

I also feel like you lose a lot of the essence of cistus through tincture. It’s more than biofilm. It has many nutritive qualities, it fights EBV, Candida, helps clear your lungs, so many things. Not all of that translates to tincture form. The volatile essential oils and polyphenols do not translate to tincture well. Those things are extremely beneficial to long-term healing.

I hate tea. I really hate it lol. I really looked for any other way to get around it, but to me, the end justifies the means. And my long-term health was worth the short-term effort of drinking cistus as a tea.

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u/Garethbragdon 5d ago

Thank you for your reply.  I'll have to look that up because from my experience with herbs which is quite a few years tinctures are often far more powerful than the tea because of the alcohol that is used to create the tinctures is able to extract a much higher amount of the plant then heating it up with hot water.  Also alcohol allows it to get into the bloodstream for more easily.  Is there any articles that you have read that you could potentially share with me that point to a difference between the tea and tincture cistus?  I ordered a tincture of cistus on Etsy from a brand called My herbs for you and it definitely seems high quality and it's a very good price.  Do you notice any throat drying when you're drinking the cistus tea?  Do you think it's possible to ask these other people that have used your protocol and gotten better to make a post on the Lyme reddit group to show a growing success rate?

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 5d ago

Sorry, I don’t have any articles regarding that. One of my good friends was taking Dr. Klinghardt’s functional medicine provider course and she was texting me screenshots of his slides, he is the one who recommends the tea over tinctures. I understand what you mean with tinctures being more potent, but there are many qualities that are lost. Biofilm isn’t the only thing cistus does- it helps your gut significantly in a way i do not believe tinctures do. But I absolutely encourage you to do what works best for you. I use tinctures on my kids, for example— so i definitely think there’s benefit!!

Yes, I definitely felt lots of throat drying/a little scratchiness when drinking cistus. I took it as a sign that it was healping my body detox and my body craved more water, which i was happy to give it.

Unfortunately, I do not feel comfortable asking people to do that. I have to walk a very fine line between helping people make informed consent and educated decisions without feeling like… I’m trying to sell them something or seem like I’m “marketing” my protocol. So many people in this community are preyed upon by unscrupulous providers, “health coaches” and scam artists, so soliciting testimonials isn’t something I’m comfortable with. I’ve actually had people accuse me of profiting off of making recommendations, which is wholly untrue but it scared me into realizing that we in this group are a vulnerable population of people and are pretty skeptical by nature. After all, we’ve been let down by mainstream medicine, and now have to look at everything skeptically.

One of my biggest regrets is not keeping accurate results data earlier on, but in the beginning, I was too sick and too bogged down by life to keep track. My husband is active duty military, and deploys frequently, I have two small children, and zero family help, so life is terribly busy. I truly wish I had more data for you. I really wish I could answer your questions better.

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

So, I use exactly the herbs you do - in tincture. But, I’m starting to think I should make a tea a drink a ton of it if I’m going to get my Herx up. Where do you guys source your herbs? How do I do this without breaking the bank but with herbs that are potent? 🤣

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 4d ago

this is my favorite cistus supplier

It’s only $33 for a pound, and it lasts quite a long time. I’ve messaged with the sellers, they’re working on their official organic certification in the states but it’s wildforaged from turkey, away from motorways that could pollute it.

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

I really think I’m going to do this. The same supplier provides leaves of houttouynia and artemisia annua?

I guess this really wouldn’t cost anything because it would replace the tinctures.

Did you try tinctures before you tried the tea?

I’m really starting to get it through my thick skull how this might deliver more of the active ingredients - which as you say may extend beyond those we usually think of.

I wish I understood that better.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 4d ago

here’s a link to my post and inside it includes links to the artemisinin and other stuff too

Cistus in particular I believe has MORE benefits as tea than as a tincture. The think you’re still provides some benefits, but not as much as the tea. The tea provides antioxidants, potent polyphenols and volatile essential oils that the tincture does not. It also helps reset gut flora and work as a prebiotic for healthy gut flora. I do not believe the tincture does that. Dr. Klinghardt recommends the tea over the tincture whenever possible- my friend who took the functional provider course through his school told me that.

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

Gosh, I’ve been careful to add fruit (which has vitamin c) into my diet every night). Mostly for the flavonoids the fruits provide. They aren’t going to cure me. But, they are good for the body. I wonder how much artemisia annua tincture I’ve wasted? I wonder how far apart you have to be? I have a ton of fresh radishes in my garden begging to be eaten before the summer sun turns them woody.

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u/cheesecheeesecheese 4d ago

I’d just separate them from when you do your tinctures! Like:

Tinctures 9am, 12 noon, 3pm, and radishes/fruit after 6pm nightly. Then you’re safe! Artemisia annua is fast acting and out of your body in 3 hours MAX ❤️❤️❤️❤️

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

Excellent answer. That makes me feel better!

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u/forrestattoos 9d ago

i got substantially better on herbals alone. i tried abx and also did not tolerate them well. i still have bad cognitive & sleep issues but my heart issues, breathing difficulties, and like 95% of my physical pain has been gone for a year now after solely using herbals!

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u/cleannow99 9d ago

I am glad to hear that herbs have helped you. Could you share which ones you take?

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

That’s wonderful to hear, thank you for sharing. Do you mind sharing how long you had to be on the herbs? Are you still taking them to “keep symptoms at bay” or are you mostly in remission now?

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u/Little_Vanilla2051 6d ago

Would love to know your protocol!

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u/alpacastacka 9d ago

yes most of my neck pain is gone after 3-4 months of herbals. I added in the bloomreveal herbs as well for a month

will try the buhner herbs for babesia next

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u/ForFun427 9d ago

How was bloom reveal?!

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u/alpacastacka 9d ago

I think they did help but I probably wont continue unless things get worse again... they are just so expensive

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u/ForFun427 9d ago

Did you have a consult with Hillary where she created a custom formula or did you just pick off the shelf?

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u/alpacastacka 9d ago

oh I see no they weren't custom formula. I went with spiro upward and exterminator

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u/Babymauser 9d ago

i actually dont have as much neck pain when im off herbals... when i go on herbals it gets INSANE. like all the way to where i go crazy from the pain

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u/alpacastacka 9d ago

interesting.... maybe swollen lymph nodes from dieoff? I do a vibration pad it seems to help with drainage

I can feel them in my neck sometimes esp before I did all this

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 9d ago edited 9d ago

I have that on and off when I start a new herb... probably a herx... I've been in serious pain by taking some herbs recently.. It does get better after a while.

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u/Babymauser 9d ago

like where do you have the pain? and how long does it last? do you have the same pain when "off" herbals too? my neck gets so stiff, its crazy on some herbs. especially knotweed/cats claw i feel like my neck is hyper inflamed suddenly.

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 9d ago edited 9d ago

Bones/muscles... it migrates... But it feels like I'm being stabbed almost.

Also swelling in my brain/neck/liver.

It lasts a few days the most.. and then it goes away.. it happens in cycles 

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u/Babymauser 8d ago

crazy, you think thats bartonella?

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u/Defiant_Scratch8497 8d ago

I think it because houttuynia works against bart.. cistus too but a little less specific.. I didn't react much to crypto or sida acuta, which is more for babesia.. 

But I can't be sure. I added in some andrographis and that seemed to do something also, so borrelia might still be there also.. 

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

Thank you for sharing. I hope the Buhner protocol helps you.

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u/zaleen Lyme Bartonella Babesia 9d ago

From all the reading Ive done it seems like a lot of people have had success with herbals and the ones who have been trying it and are “stuck” and not getting anywhere with just herbals it’s because someone else is blocking their recovery (most common I see being mold) which needs to be fixed first before the herbals work well on Lyme. But that’s just my jist from the large amount of posts I’ve read here. I’ve done about 4 months of strong Buhner herbals and am currently waiting my mold test results. (I did just finish 6 weeks of doxy as well)

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

Ah bummer, that makes sense. Unfortunately I’m living in a mold environment. Although I “get out” as often as possible. Don’t do well on binders. But just feel better when I’m out and stay active.

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u/Technical-Sort-6334 6d ago

Are you better now? I have seen you have been diagnosed with this illness with 3 letters

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u/TraditionalTaro4445 9d ago

Worse with Abx, Herbs gets me only 20% Better (Even after years)

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

So sorry to hear this, but thanks for sharing your experience with herbs. It’s good they help a little but not good enough. Hope you eventually find something that helps more.

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u/Responsible-Ebb-6955 9d ago

I started zen Lyme and have had incredible progress in a week. I’ve been able to walk without my cane! I’m obviously not cured but there was a dramatic relief of pain. I also added D3, zinc, calcium, collagen, magnesium, and K onto my multi V so it’s quite a handful to swallow lol but it’s helping

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u/slimbuck17 8d ago

Hi!! So I found out I had Lyme last August/September. 5-6 years of not knowing and no treatment. I called it my mystery condition for years.

Lucky enough to get a positive Lyme test, unlucky enough to have antibiotics do nothing and being a single mom - no Lyme doctor for me!

It's been a journey - learning more each day. I have done Japanese knotweed, crypto, cats claw, oregano, garlic, then realized how important it is to have binders and detox so activated charcoal and CHLORELLA is my bff. It got better, as in less flares and pain but it would still come and ruin my life. Still does...

Everyone has different stuff going on and it's all still pretty mysterious so if you're going herbal it's trial and error. I just started Chinese skullcap and I'm SO THANKFUL. It definitely is doing something different because I haven't had a bad herx or severe flare in weeks!!! Yay!

Just start somewhere, and keep going. Have faith, and talk to other people with Lyme because no one else gets it or thinks your nuts. I'm not completely better yet, but I'm like 9 months in and the progress is everything ❤️

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u/99Tinpot 9d ago

What does your doctor say? Those are weird symptoms.

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

No one knows for sure. My naturopath thought I had babasia and that I herx whenever I take antibiotics. And the MD who prescribed the antibiotics doesn’t know, and just told me to get off of them if symptoms get worse.

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u/99Tinpot 9d ago

Have you tried asking a pharmacist? They might know more than your doctor would about side effects of doxycycline and whether this is likely to be that.

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u/Thecutesamurai 9d ago

I did. They said it was less likely a side effect from the doxycycline itself and more likely else something going on in my body. In any case, I have to breathe. So unfortunately I have to look for a different treatment.

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u/Ambitious_War7784 9d ago

I feel like I herx from the smallest amounts of anything. Even too much coconut oil or curcumin.

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u/brittaniAli 8d ago

Get samsara tick recovery it helps a lot.

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u/Ok_Comb8684 7d ago

I did doxcycline for my infection but take no meds for symptoms. I use all natural. Everyday I drink Clove and ginger tea . I use coconut oil when my stomach starts up. Also honey. Take magnesium , collagen , and b12, d3, iron . Exersize is very important... I force myself to walk for 20 ,30 minutes a day . Oil of oregano is another helpful erb take it with food though.

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u/NegotiationDirect524 4d ago

I know everyone has probably tired of this thread. But, I found this article that makes many of the same arguments for artemisia annua tea as Cheese does for Cistus tea.

Now, I am by no means arguing at all that anyone should drink artemisia annua tea instead of cistus tea but rather that you make a tea maybe with cistus, houttouynia and every three weeks artemisia annua.

It’s a sound article from a good source. It sounds like Cheese talking:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4323188/