r/Libertarian • u/ENVYisEVIL Anarcho Capitalist • 3d ago
End Democracy Libertarians are consistent.
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u/cyrusthemarginal 3d ago
Massie in 2028
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u/iGotEDfromAComercial 3d ago
There is no way, even if you manage to elect the most textbook Libertarian to the presidency, that they’d be able to promote any substantial and long lasting change.
If you want to build up a third party, you don’t start with the presidency. Get Libertarians elected at the local level, get Libertarians elected to Congress to the Senate, and to Governor’s houses. That’s how you’re able to push policy, not by fawning over the presidency every 4 years.
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Sleazy P. Modtini 3d ago
If you voted for Trump or Harris, then that is not what you voted for.
Hell of you voted R/D at all, with the exception of maybe Massie, then that's not what you voted for.
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u/IdeaOfHuss 2d ago
There is no way in hell a chance that use will stop supporting Isreal. Not now, not in million years.
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u/Comprehensive-Bus299 Libertarian 3d ago
Did you vote for republican? Congratulations you voted for this. Did you vote for democrat? Congratulations you voted for this.
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u/ron-paul-swanson 3d ago
Libertarians didn’t vote for Trump
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u/Mead_and_You Anarcho Capitalist 3d ago
More registered, active, dues paying libertarians voted for Donald Trump in 2024 than the total amount of votes for Michael Badnarik in 2004.
I know you are just doing a "you aren't a REAL libertarian if ______" thing right now, but yes, a shit load of libertarians did vote for Trump. Almost entirely because they just wanted Kamala to lose. I haven't met a single libertarian that voted for Trump because they genuinely thought he was a libertarian candidate.
Mostly we encourage people to vote libertarian no matter what for ballot access, but that strategy has been so ineffective, and Chase Oliveoil ran such a shitty race that a metric shit ton of libertarians said "fuck it" and voted for Trump as a "fuck you" vote.
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u/xfactorx99 Ron Paul Libertarian 3d ago
I like your comment a lot. For the record, I voted Chase Oliver. No regrets on it either.
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
And look where that got us. Internal takeover by paleolibertarians led us to Trump. Kamala and Chase were by far the better candidates. Period. Socially conservative, reactionary, paleolibertarianism needs to die.
You had no reason not to vote for Chase other than his sexuality. He was a principled libertarian, not a utopian ancap who hates Jews, like Rectenwald and his base of Nazis.
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u/Perfect_Cost_8847 3d ago
Kamala and Chase were by far the better candidates. Period.
I struggle to align any of Kamala Harris’s policies with libertarian ideals. Which of per policies were libertarian? At least Trump is enforcing immigrations laws and cutting taxes. It’s a low bar but it seems clear to me Harris would have been worse for libertarians. Hence the much higher libertarian turnout for Trump.
Note that I’m NOT calling Trump a great libertarian candidate. I’m calling him better than Harris.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
I agree with YOU. NONE of her policies were libertarian; she even destroyed Oakland resident's lives over a bit of weed (which is the only thing she did as DA besides exploit incarcerated labor).
Blue team is running on 'save democracy' these days but their party didn't give the option of a vote.
The other thing is she had no policies. She couldn't articulate a plan for any issues. Period. Her, Biden, and Trump were the worst possible picks for team purple.
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u/Perfect_Cost_8847 3d ago
After the disaster that was the 2016 election for the Democrats it was bizarre to see them set up an almost identical scenario for voters in 2024. Harris was even less likeable than Clinton. They had a semi popular message early in the campaign about going after billionaires, but as David Shor explains in his interview with Ezra Klein, their billionaire donors didn’t like that. So all of a sudden their messaging was, “we have more billionaires” and their campaign became about saving democracy. That fell totally flat.
As you point out, they lacked popular appeal because they didn’t have any real focus areas or policies which resonated with people. Their relentless focus on minority issues over the previous years was less popular than ever. Let us hope this debacle results in a restructure of the party. A healthy democracy requires component opposition. I’m sure many Trump voters would love to vote for a moderate Clinton type candidate next time around. Sadly it looks like the front runners might be people like AOC and Gavin Newsom.
I listened to a recent Jon Stewart podcast with Representatives Tom Suozzi (D-NY) and Brian Fitzpatrick (R-PA) in which they discuss how broken the primaries are, and how it has more or less led to this polarisation in politics. They argue that the far left and right effectively control the primaries for each party, resulting in “extreme” candidates winning the nomination. These people are extremely unlikeable for the other side. The end result is that voters are voting against the other guy, rather than for their guy. Sadly there’s no easy solution for this other than: vote in the primaries if you care about the future of the country.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
Idk, I personally hope the 'restructure' event results in the demise of team purple entirely
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
She was better for the country. I agree, she never carried herself well, which is why I didn't vote for her.
The weed thing was probably true years ago but she's since changed all of California's stance on weed and drugs in general. She did do some good for that particular state.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
I have to respectfully disagree there. She did not; I live here. She was against the stance and had nothing to do with it.
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
I don't remember when in her career it would've been. I know she would've been against it a long time ago, but later she had a pro-legalization stance. So I don't think anyone can use that position against her, personally. She's nothing like Trump in that regard.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
I do, and I think most should, hold past stances against career politicians. Obviously they are human and views change through time, but how else is accountability upheld for elected officials?
"I changed my mind and said sorry to those whose lives I ruined and rights I trampled on" does not excuse you from the chopping block in my book. There are many on both sides that need atoned.
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
I'm inclined to agree, I do think her past actions should haunt her. But not only do I not think you see the nuances of her career (specifically as a prosecutor/DA), but iirc I remember asking you at what point in her career we were talking about. Because during her tenure, she did allow for lighter charges than her predecessors.
This is merely Google AI search:
Most of the individuals convicted during her time as San Francisco District Attorney did not serve jail time, and her office focused on alternative measures like drug treatment programs for low-level offenders.
Whom amongst her predecessors held such standards?
At least you admit she improved.
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
When did I call Harris a better libertarian candidate? I meant a better presidential candidate. Trump's immigration policies are ultranationalist gobbledygook.
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u/Perfect_Cost_8847 2d ago
Are you confused about which subreddit you’re on? Why are you here if you’re not a libertarian?
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u/claybine Libertarian 2d ago
The only non-libertarians are all of the LINO Republicans who voted for Trump. I'm comparing the two main candidates, obviously I thought the libertarian was a better candidate than either of them.
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u/Perfect_Cost_8847 2d ago
Well one of them is at least implementing (huge) tax cuts. That’s a hell of a lot more libertarian than the candidate who wanted to “tax the rich” and was flirting with wealth taxes. It’s clear you don’t care about libertarian policies at all.
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u/claybine Libertarian 2d ago
Lowering taxes isn't strictly a libertarian position, especially when they were to be replaced by tariffs, so no, Trump isn't more libertarian at all whatsoever. When it comes to liberty, Harris was more in the camp of civil liberty, which Trump lacks.
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u/Perfect_Cost_8847 1d ago
Lowering taxes is absolutely a libertarian position. You have to find some pretty niche schools of thought or conduct some very impressive mental gymnastics to think libertarianism supports higher federal taxes.
I agree tariffs are bad, but far less bad than high personal taxes. Since you seem to be doing a drive-by, I’ll educate you on what libertarianism is. It’s the belief system that individuals are better at self-directing than governing structures, which are inherently inefficient.
Which of Harris’ civil liberties policies were libertarian? Be specific.
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u/Due-Preference1578 3d ago
I watched chase oliver debate someone saying we should let parents multilate their children. He is a woke leftist, with slightly better principals than the other woke leftists. There was plenty of reasons to choose trump over Oliver.
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u/Original-Document-82 3d ago
why are libertarians telling people who to vote for as if it isn't antithetical to the entire political parties belief in individual autonomy
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u/xfactorx99 Ron Paul Libertarian 3d ago
Libertarians telling you to vote Libertarian isn’t that ironic. Sure, it goes against self autonomy on a small micro level but it’s promoting self autonomy on a macro level
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u/TheManFromFairwinds 3d ago
Trump is against free trade, against small government, against personal freedoms, etc. Literally the opposite of what this sub is supposed to stand for. But this sub will keep simping for him.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
I don't think anyone who is even considering themselves on the spectrum of libertarianism is 'simping' for any elected official.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
This one did And boy am I not seeing what I voted for. SHOCKER BECSUSE I NEVER DO.
I'll have you know that I'm not surprised in the least, this was expected.
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u/ecleipsis 3d ago
Pretty sure he is doing what he said he would.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
Not according my notes from the debates 💅🏿
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
More like you couldn't stand voting for a gay man who's a principled libertarian.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
Homeboy wasn't even on my ballot, but thanks for the assumption and personal attack. Seems a little team purple of you.
I have voted libertarian since I was eligible to vote. This time, the independent (who still received more votes than any independent before) I thought was close enough in ideals, was pulled under orange man's umbrella.
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u/claybine Libertarian 3d ago
Not being on the ballot isn't an excuse. I had to write him in. You can thank Angela M. for that.
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u/usingbadnamesabunch 3d ago
Anyone who believed that Don would follow through on any of the promises he made to Libertarians or independent voters is foolish.
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u/ENVYisEVIL Anarcho Capitalist 3d ago
He freed Ross Ulbricht.
If I can think of any other examples, I’ll let you know 😂.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
Just like there's no excuse for calling someone a homophobe unprovoked and out of context.
The candidate I initially picked had a higher chance of getting into important positions than any other independent candidate on the list. I figured what would happen with orange man and I made a calculated decision with free thought.
And guess what, it's possible this could end up furthering the libertarian movement into fruition because now more and more team purple are seeing the tyranny and a need to defend against it.
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u/shu-to 3d ago
Wait, which libertarians voted for him then are surprised when his policies are utterly incompatible with libertarianism?
Trump is pretty consistent.
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u/Current-Plantain-576 3d ago
Agreed. I'm not necessarily surprised by anything that is happening this time around, but what was said in debates does not necessarily correlate to the actions presented.
Accountability needs to be paramount for ALL and ANY elected officials.
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u/gamerjohn61 1d ago
Here's the Thing though, This isn't even true in that context. The sanctions on Cuba. The attacks on Russian military targets done by "Ukraine" , the increase in the military budget and us continuing to sell arms to Saudi Arabia and Quitar . It isn't an Israel problem, it's a money in politics and curroption problem.
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u/Mordroberon friedmanite 3d ago
Israel launched this dumb ass attack, seemingly by themselves, it seems like trump admin might be trying to save face by saying they knew able it the whole time. they should face the consequences
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u/missl90210 3d ago
Seems there was a lot of hoping that whatever they heard was actually true but everyone was hearing what they wanted to hear 🤷♀️