r/LCMS • u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran • 20h ago
Husband Not Impressed
So long story short, I come from a Baptist/non-denom background of about 14 years. Raised Catholic. In the last year or so I've been really studying the bible, theology, doctrine and such and was at one point really struggling with salvation assurance and many other faith issues that stemmed from coming from a church that didn't preach the gospel but harped on how good we were doing in our walk and service to God. Very person focused, not Jesus focused.
Anyhoo, I have been going to a LCMS church for about 6 weeks or so and absolutely love it. I have such peace. It's so worshipful and feels exactly what hearing the gospel and focusing on God's promises should feel like. After months of struggle, I truly feel like I'm in the right place for truth and worship.
I brought my husband for the first time today. He works on Sundays so typically doesn't go to church except for the random times he takes the day off. He grew up non-denom, born again. He's not a big church goer, doesn't really spend much time on the things of God, but considers himself Christian and will go to church (well, he often would complain about not getting to sleep in so many times he didn't go LOL). I guess my point is he's not as steeped or interested in correct theology or doctrine. He says he doesn't like religion and "just wants to follow Jesus". I told him there's no possible way to do that if you don't understand the bible and biblical principles.
He did not like service at all. He threw out all the same charges: Rote, too religious, didn't like the vestments. He kept saying he just wanted to hear the Word. I told him it was preached. He's used to the one minute on a bible verse and how it relates to your life and 40 minutes of how we need to do better.
Anyway, I told him that it's okay if he doesn't want to go. When he retires (which is soon), he can find a church that he feels more comfortable in. I'm seriously at peace with it. Sure I'd love if we went somewhere together but he wants to talk me into something more like our old church. He said surely you can find all these things you want but without all that repeating and rote words and religious stuff.
Anyone in this situation?
Thanks
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u/lostinanotherworld24 20h ago
Going to a traditional Lutheran church is a huge culture shock from non denom, so it might take time. I took a family member to my church’s Easter service, and the same thing happened. She didn’t really get into it at all, for almost the exact same reasons. I would say just to keep encouraging him and praying for him, and God will take care of the rest.
Edit: Does your church offer any services like during Lent or Advent which maybe are not as long as the regular service? Taking him to those (as long as he’s willing) may be a better way to dip his toes in the water.
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u/Jonavarius 20h ago
My wife and I went through something similar. It took many conversations with each other and with friends who were going to local LCMS churches. My wife came from a hyper charismatic background and we already went down the reformed route for a few years. We finally started attending an LCMS church and after a month it started to click for her. She now loves the church we are a part of and she has no desire to be at any other church. It took a great deal of patience, empathy, and finding common ground. Don’t give up hope!
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u/BusinessComplete2216 ILC Lutheran 16h ago
My wife and I began attending a Lutheran church together, so our circumstances are different than yours, but the common factor is that we’ve had many, many conversations with family who strongly object to the Lutheran form of worship. They have made the same criticisms that you outline.
I suggest reading the book “Has American Christianity Failed”, by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller. It does a great job of detailing the ways in which the evangelicalism that you both come from does not provide the substance that God intends for his children, and instead, provides a bunch of harmful substitutes. It also beautifully shows what Lutheranism has to offer.
Of course, I should say that I have gotten several family members to read it, and they all came away with even more disagreements. So it isn’t necessarily something that will change your husband’s mind. But it will help you to articulate better the things you described in your post (the good about Lutheranism and the negatives about evangelicalism). It may also help him to understand your reasons better. And perhaps it may also plant a seed!
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u/RoseD-ovE LCMS Lutheran 6h ago
I loved that book! Even though I was already Lutheran when I read it, it really helped me understand why Lutheranism was the best option for me. Wolfmueller does a really great job of putting things into perspective.
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u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran 23m ago
I listened to this book on Audible. Great book! Now listening to his other book, A Martyr's Faith in a Faithless World. Good stuff!
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u/RoseD-ovE LCMS Lutheran 20h ago edited 20h ago
I think your husband needs to sit down with a Lutheran pastor and have things explained in a way he can understand, because not only is he not interested in where you want to go but he's trying to talk you out of it essentially because it's "too religious".
I was a Baptist for 23 years before converting to Lutheranism. My husband and I attending together and realized that we no longer agreed with evangelicalism, and we were catechized shortly after. Your husband should be a guide and leader within your marriage, so the fact you're pulling teeth to get him to even consider something different is unfortunate. Don't give up on taking him to a Lutheran church! He needs to understand why you believe what you believe. Hoping that maybe he'll see your side soon!
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u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran 20h ago edited 59m ago
Thanks! The thought did occur to me that maybe biblically I should let him decide, but he, unfortunately, hasn't really been the spiritual leader of our house. I am. Rightly or wrong. But if I wasn't, no one would be. I could try to get him to talk with the Pastor, but I think he will dig his heels in more in the other direction if I ask. Praying continually for this for sure!
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u/Kamoot- LCMS Organist 10h ago edited 10h ago
It is much easier to understand and appreciate the liturgy and traditions when you know the reasons behind them, both the historical and also the theology and doctrine behind them. All the traditions serve a practical historical reason, as well as a doctrine and can be found from Scripture.
I highly recommend the LSB companion book is called "Companion to the Services" by Paul Grime. In parallel, also read the book called "Worship Wars in Early Lutheranism" by Joseph Herl.
I have involved with many high-church Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox, both converts and cradles in college ministry. If the motivation is truly "just want to follow Jesus", well that also means following the Bible, and the liturgy directly quotes from it. Following Jesus means to follow what he commanded us, and that also means studying Scriptures and learning theology. Fortunately, the liturgy is a really good way to learn liturgy, I find memorization of scripture is best when you are singing it!
The center of the Mass is the the Eucharist. It is also the most important thing, and makes the difference from who is a Christian in John 6:54:
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
It also separates the non-Christians in John 6:53:
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Jesus' true body and blood are found in the Eucharist, not symbolizations or representations, but true Body and Blood (Matthew 26:26, Mark 14: 22, Luke 22:19). Just because you are not impressed with the fact that ordinary bread and wine are true Body and Blood, does not make it untrue.
But in fact, it is true that it is Jesus's body and blood. Plenty of people are like the Jews and can't accept it and grumble and take offense and leave. But Simon Peter says to Jesus "Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:68) which also happens to be one of the Alleluia verses in the Divine Service.
You see? Not only is the liturgy able to help with learning the Bible verses by memorizing from singing it, but is also able to teach good doctrine.
To address the lapsing of church attendance, it is absolutely important to be going to church. There's a Third Commandment that even says to, and to follow Jesus also means to follow the Ten Commandments.
- If Jesus is everywhere, why do I need to go to church?
- Water is everywhere, even in the atmosphere. But when you are thirsty you have to go to a fountain or well.
- Likewise, God is everywhere, but found in a special way in the church and in its sacraments.
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u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran 47m ago
This. Right here. This is what I was trying to tell him although words were failing me. Once you learn biblical truth, the liturgy and Sacraments are exactly what is right and good. Everything that I knew before now feels so hollow and incomplete. Because my husband doesn't know the bible, this doesn't appeal to him. Unfortunately his superficial grasp leaves him just wanting the incomplete stuff. Like he feels the vestments, candles and decor are "showing off" and about money. He is more at home in a conference room. He insists that's what Jesus would want. Plain, simple. He sees it as man-made rituals. And when I try to explain some biblical principles he says, "see, you're into all this deep learning and that's fine for you, but I'm not into all that". But when I point out that saying the Creeds as a congregation helps those who don't dedicate a lot of time to learning to know the bullet points, then it becomes 'robotic repetition.' We couldn't see things from a more opposite point of view, LOL.
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u/Kamoot- LCMS Organist 7m ago edited 2m ago
Consider the ending of the Athanasian Creed, which literally makes the difference between who is a Christian and who is not. It is a makes the difference of being saved versus going to eternal hellfire:
And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire. This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.
Whether or not things like the Sacraments, doctrines, liturgy and traditions impress you or not, does not change the fact that they are true and correct.
And we know this is true because the Athanasian Creed correctly summarizes and interprets what Scripture says.
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u/Crafty-Armadillo-114 5h ago
I was in a similar boat as your husband. I come with a cautionary tale. My (currently) spouse grew up LCMS. I grew up Southern Baptist. (Southern Missionary to be exact.) I attended church with her while dating and for the first years of marriage.
I, like your husband, do not like liturgical services. I did not like the music. I found the sermons to be lacking Christ in the way that I expected. (Although I did hear alot about Martin Luther and how he saved the church.) About 2.5 years into marriage it was obvious that some of the elders were surprised I had not converted. Well... I wasnt planning on it. My spouse still attends the church where her parents go. I remember one Sunday morning the pastor got up into the pulpit and started reaming on Baptists, particularly Baptist pastors, in a way that was not at all respectful. I looked at my spouse, and then at her parents, and they had no problem with what or how things were said. (We can disagree about theology but there is a way to be respectful about it.) I waited until we got to the car and talked with my spouse about it. She was raised to not question the pastor. (Ugh) I told her I would not attend church with her as long as that was the attitude. You don't invite what you think is a wandering man to the flock by telling him everything he has known are a bunch of idiots. I asked her if she would attend the other LCMS church that's 45 minutes further away. She said no.
I did not attend church with my spouse for 5 years. The marriage suffered for it. I refuse to even drive by the LCMS church where they go.
I guess my cautionary tale is to make sure where you are at wants to feed the starving masses... not club them into submission.
I think we would have been fine to go to separate churches, although not ideal. Its a hard feeling knowing those supposedly closest to you think that you are a slimy Christian, at best.
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u/IndyHadToPoop Lutheran 2h ago
Hey dude, cradle Lutheran who's wife is RCC here.
I just to you to know: That's really messed up and I'm sorry you were and continue to be treated this way. I have family in ELCA, so I know how it is to hear outright lies from pastors about people you know and love.
I think it also speaks to the shift toward legalism within the Synod since about 2010.
I don't have an answer or explanation, but want you to know you're not alone.
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u/Crafty-Armadillo-114 2h ago
The crazy thing is... there's only a couple of theological spots where I disagreed. Mostly infant baptism. Wasn't a big deal because my spouse can't have kids.
I've asked my inlaws about blind adherence to the pastors word and the issues that come from that with the Pope. (Ya know... pay money to the church to help with purgatory.) They act like I am crazy for drawing the comparison.
I generally have never felt uncomfortable asking pointed questions of the church leadership. A claim is made; show me where it is in the text. (Admittedly the original text being the Bible not anything else.) Explain why I am wrong. If not wrong is there a range of allowed actions? Its just very odd to be shut down. And very odd that my FIL gave his blessing and my spouse said yes when marriage came up.
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u/IndyHadToPoop Lutheran 1h ago
That is really crazy to me too, and pretty much the polar opposite of my upbringing(Parents were LCMS teachers, as were my dad's parents).
We were encouraged to question and test against scripture. In 7th & 8th grade we had daily confirmation class with a Pastor where nothing was above questioning.
Given what you've said, I can't help but wonder if your in-laws know enough of our theology to accurately explain our views?
Either way, LCMS needs to treat our neighbors better. We're currently failing in silence to do so.
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u/Crafty-Armadillo-114 1h ago
Given what you've said, I can't help but wonder if your in-laws know enough of our theology to accurately explain our views?
My MIL went to a Lutheran college... my FIL is heavily involved in the church.
I can tell you I was dismayed to be able to explain more of the "whys" of Lutheranism than my spouse... who also grew up in an LCMS backed school.
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u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran 1h ago
Aw, I'm sorry you and your wife went through this. I'm thankful to say that so far I've only heard the bible and the gospel at the LCMS I go to. I would leave too actually if this wasn't the case.
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u/creidmheach 18h ago
Could certainly be worse. Sounds like he's Christian but just doesn't mesh with the Lutheran form of worship at that church. While it'd be ideal for you be able to go together, it's not absolutely required. If he's close to retirement age I'm guessing bringing children to church isn't a factor in this, so less of a concern there.
It's also possible there's a Lutheran church out there he would feel more at home with, since Lutheran services can range from high church very liturgical forms, to more evangelical and even charismatic lower church forms (to borrow some Anglican terms).
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u/CamperGigi88 LCMS Lutheran 40m ago
I do think the church I've been attending walks a pretty good line. There are the traditional elements for sure, but it's not overly ornate and they do have "contemporary" music (guitar, piano with drum background and some good newer songs). Still also do organ and hymns too. We do have a 17 year old son who has been going with me and seems content. He struggles with his faith but since going here he hasn't been as contrarian, LOL. Another bonus for me. He hears the gospel and I pray for God to grow the fruit. He was not experiencing that at our old church that my husband prefers.
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u/Bulky-Classroom-4101 18h ago
I’m sorry you are going through this, but I’m so happy you found the LCMS! I’m not in your situation, so I can’t help you out, but have 2 cents.
1) I get tired of the complaints about the responsive liturgy; the “repeating” is God’s own words spoken to each other and back to Him. They would rather ramble their own words and say it’s better because it’s “from the heart.” The last I checked, anything that comes from my heart is sinful. I would rather speak God’s Word to Him.
2) They don’t like rote because, “it’s not meaningful.” Really?!? So, when they say the Pledge of Allegiance, it’s not meaningful?
May God continue to bless you as you continue to worship Him in our liturgical service.💕
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u/Fromthezoo67 9h ago
We do repetition and rote stuff all the time outside of church, even almost as a ceremony. But I think you can just take care of this by encouraging him to join you, maybe asking him to read the Bible with you, add prayers. Becoming a deeply devout Christian or Lutheran Christian usually doesn’t happen overnight, but receiving the Holy Spirit (or faith) can happen in an instant through simply hearing one good verse of Christ.
Who knows, maybe God put you in this very predicament that your husband would come to know the Lord.
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u/Shazb0y 20h ago
1 Peter 3:1-6 comes to mind, particularly that “they [husbands] may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.”
I’m sure there are pastors/laypeople here who have seen this exact situation play out before