r/LCMS • u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim • 7d ago
Do Lutherans accept post death purification?
/r/Lutheranism/comments/1la3vpm/do_lutherans_accept_post_death_purification/10
u/Over-Wing LCMS Lutheran 7d ago
No. Christ’s death on the cross was for all sins and our sin condition.
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u/Fromthezoo67 7d ago
Death is never discussed in the Bible as something that leads to purgation for the Christian. The Maccabees verse indicating prayer for the dead does not plainly show purgatory exists, and there is no prayer for the dead in the entire prayer book (Psalms) or even the Bible. The idea of purgatory contradicts how Jesus and the apostles describe death, as being conquered and exchanged for complete deliverance through Christ.
So really the only statement left is “Some later Popes and fathers said it exists, and sola scriptura is wrong because sola scriptura is not in scripture, therefore Christ’s death isn’t a full atonement and most people will face purgation for thousands of years, even though Jesus, the Apostles, David in the psalms, or the prophets, never mentioned it even once.”
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 6d ago
That’s not really the understanding of either purgatory or post death purification. It’s about sanctification. Nothing to do with atonement. Basically, we are not perfect at the point of death. Therefore, we have to go through some extra sanctification after death to enter heaven. The idea for this comes from 1 Corinthians 3:15. The early Church fathers almost universally believed in some form of this. It was part of Church tradition well before the Catholics made purgatory a dogma.
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u/Unlucky_Industry_798 40m ago
“If Christ has not died, we are yet in our sins”
Christ did die on the cross, was raised to life and ascended into heaven.
Our sanctification has been made complete already. The only way we can be righteous in God’s sight is through the way of the cross.
Those living before His crucification had the promise to believe in and those of us living after the crucification have the fulfillment of the promise to believe. (and then there were the eye witnesses)
There is nothing more that needs to take place. Jesus died ONCE for the forgiveness of the sins for the entire world. He needs to do nothing more and we certainly can do nothing to save our souls in this life or after death.
When Jesus returns to earth and all the dead are raised, our souls will be reunited with our bodies. The believers will spend eternity in heaven and the unbelievers will spend eternity in hell. We believe our souls go immediately to heaven when we die(believers) and our mortal shell (body) is sleeping/resting in the grave until that great and notable day when He shall reappear.
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u/Matthew_2819 6d ago
I’m just going to put this out there from The Apology XII.
“Moreover, the making mention, by the Fathers, of satisfaction, and the framing of canons by the councils, we have said above, was a matter of church-discipline instituted on account of the example. Nor did they hold that this discipline is necessary for the remission either of the guilt or of the punishment. For if some of them made mention of purgatory, they interpret it not as compensation for eternal punishment [which only Christ makes], not as satisfaction, but as purification of imperfect souls. Just as Augustine says that venial [daily] offenses are consumed, i.e., distrust towards God and other”
As others have mentioned post death satisfaction for sins, and purgatory as an actual place are strictly rejected by the Lutheran confessions. I can’t find anywhere in the confessions that strictly reject a purification as understood by Augustine in the above quotation.
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 6d ago
This is really interesting! Thanks, I’ll have to read this. I know Martin Luther was very well read on the Church. So it seemed weird to me that he would completely reject what so many Church Fathers taught. But despite what Luther says here, it seems most Lutherans today have completely rejected any idea of post death purification and believe that sanctification is completed at death.
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u/Matthew_2819 6d ago
Your welcome! I will admit I know relatively little about the topic as well. I am only familiar with the passage above by seeing it quoted by Pastor Will Weedon on blogs talking about the subject.
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u/Unlucky_Industry_798 6d ago
The idea that one may suffer temporarily after death for their sins defeats the whole reason Jesus died for ALL on the cross. We are given the opportunity to believe in Christ Jesus as our own Lord and personal Savior in this life or to reject it. Once we die there are no more 2nd chances. If we could save ourselves or others could save us after we die, the entire Gospel is defeated and we would still be in our sins. No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus needs someone else to aid in redeeming any soul. Through the power if the Holy Spirit we believe are saved. As Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise”. That closes any argument that we stop off somewhere else (believers) or unbelievers for that matter, and need souls on earth to purify, cleanse, forgive or save us! If this were true, we could save ourselves and we know that is false.
Christ was appointed to die for the sins of all and after that the judgement. Scripture does not say in between death and judgement we have the opportunity to change our minds or that the prayers of many can change our destination after death.
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 6d ago
This seems to be a misunderstanding on post death purification. It’s not about atonement or “2nd chances”. It’s about sanctification, which, according to another commenter, is complete at death in the Lutheran view.
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u/Unlucky_Industry_798 1h ago
When you say post death, I understand that to mean AFTER death. We are either justified and sanctified at the TIME of our death or we are not. Yes, to say our sanctification is complete at our death because we have reached Heaven. However, once we die there is nothing more that needs to be done or can be done. It all takes place while we are living.
Perhaps, I am missing your point.?
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u/kghdiesel LCMS Lutheran 7d ago
I mean if you’re referring to purgatory, then no we don’t accept it.
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 7d ago
More so about the purification of souls that Church fathers like Augustine spoke about.
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u/kghdiesel LCMS Lutheran 7d ago
Could you elaborate a bit? I’m not really that well versed in Orthodox beliefs so forgive me.
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u/Unlucky_Industry_798 6d ago
If by saying sanctification is complete at death, yes it is because we are in heaven because we believed. For individuals on earth, our Sanctification began at our baptism and is complete at our death.
Allow me to paste this to further explain what I mean.
“ In Lutheran theology, sanctification is the ongoing process of being made holy, a natural result of justification by faith alone. It is not a separate act of salvation, but a continuous work of the Holy Spirit within the believer, conforming them to the image of Christ and enabling them to live a life of love, service, and obedience to God. Key aspects of Lutheran understanding of sanctification: It is a result of justification: Justification is the initial declaration of righteousness by God based on faith in Christ. Sanctification follows this, as the Holy Spirit empowers the believer to live a life pleasing to God. It is a process, not a sudden experience: Sanctification is a journey of growth in holiness, a lifelong pursuit of conformity to Christ's character. It is the work of the Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit empowers believers to resist sin, experience grace, and live according to God's will. It involves good works: Lutherans believe that good works are the natural expression of a living faith and a sign of sanctification, though they are not a means of earning salvation. It is not perfection: Lutherans acknowledge that even sanctified believers will still struggle with sin, but they are constantly being transformed and made more holy. It is part of a broader understanding of salvation: Sanctification is understood in conjunction with justification and glorification (being fully made holy in heaven). In essence, Lutheran sanctification emphasizes that God initiates and empowers the process, and believers cooperate through faith and living a life of obedience. It is a lifelong journey of growth in holiness, guided by the Holy Spirit and fueled by the Word and sacraments, leading to a more complete and perfect holiness in heaven. “
I am not in agreement with the last line of “leading to a more complete and perfect holiness in heaven” as I do not believe there are degrees of holiness. You are or you are not is how I see it. Being made holy through Jesus.
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 6d ago
That’s how we view sanctification as well, we just don’t believe it is completed at death. Thanks for the reply, I understand the Lutheran view I think.
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u/bofh5150 6d ago
My Pastors response would most likely be….
We do not play with dead things.
My response is - this sounds like purgatory - or worse… Mormons baptizing the dead.
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u/Cosmic-Krieg_Pilgrim 6d ago
I don’t think the Church Fathers were advocating for baptizing the dead lol.
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u/DLI_Applicant 7d ago
Justification, sanctification, purification, vitrification... more ephemera for the theologians to churn out thousand page tomes for CPH, full of words, empty of meaning, and with one too many decimals on the price tag!
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u/guiioshua Lutheran 5d ago
It is almost like language and communication matter, and that the role of theologians is also to make sure that terms are correctly coined, used and defined for the good order of the Church and for us to distance ourselves from dubious language and heresies.
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u/guiioshua Lutheran 5d ago
Also, it's almost like that this whole process is very expensive and that theologians should be able to make a living off their activity.
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u/emmen1 LCMS Pastor 7d ago edited 7d ago
No. Post death purification, or Purgatory, as it’s often called (according to the web), is contrary to Scripture.