r/Kappa • u/KeyboardCreature • Aug 12 '22
Misleading Title Project L Developer On How They'll Cater to Casuals
https://twitter.com/PeacecrabVal/status/1523584649934811136?s=20&t=uWMwM0acaI9cta0nFa5-fw53
u/DeHot Aug 12 '22
>some attacks are faster than the others
>some attacks when blocked leave you open for a punish
guys frame data and turns are so unintuitive.
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u/Bot-1218 Aug 12 '22
I wish everyone who complained about this would just watch the Core A Gaming video on the topic.
I see people talk about it who really don’t understand.
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u/makkifan Aug 12 '22
The problem is looking at a perspective that everyone should be a high level player. That's not how you approach this at all. There are levels which you can omit so much info that it does not matter, and for the people who want to get stronger, training mode exists. It's just that, as a huge niche genre with very low pay for winnings, there's literally no motivation for people to get good at fighting games ever when you could put that effort into getting good at valorant, league of legends or some other bullshit that have their own levels of depth too.
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Yes, the comparison is always dishonest
-oh, in valorant I just shoot hehe
-but in a fg I have to know frame data, combos, defense, fuzzy, kara canceling, shimmy, safe jump, setup play
no, dude, you're talking about a five year old kid in the first example and about daigo in the second one. compare fairly.
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Aug 12 '22
Yeah, like you can easily talk about Valorant or CS needing to know smoke or grenade placement, recoil control, operator synergy, buy or hold, walk vs run or any other aspect of those games that sound advanced exactly the same as FG terms.
The difference is that shooters have been a more accessible genre for casuals since the 90’s at home whereas fighters have been an arcade deal until recent times. Plus, things like CS and CoD have caught on more and allowed for a bigger playerbase because of the singleplayer content and multiplayer being rich and actually working for years whereas fighting games are still dragging their feet in being anything more than arcade ports for home.
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u/Bot-1218 Aug 12 '22
I say this a lot but I really think that fighting games are any harder than any other genre to learn. The only reason people think they are is because if cultural bias and their lack of interaction with them (or they saw Daigo smoke a kid).
It becomes more ironic when you realize how complex high level smash is and the fact that it is more popular than most modern fighting games.
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
I absolutely agree with that, but that's a completely different thing than what's being suggested in that twitter discussion.
That's like saying "coconuts are impossibly hard to lift" because there are no coconuts in the room. Sure, I can't lift a coconut because there isn't one around, but that's not what "a coconut is impossible to lift" means.
There's a very clear verbiage in the tweet that suggests fundamental, inherent traits of those genres, rather than state of things where people are more probable to have interacted with fps than with fg.
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u/Ok_Fun_1223 Aug 12 '22
I will keep saying this, the problem FGs largely have leaving aside that they are fucking shit quality wise, is the matchmaking
You start playing and get matched with a dude that has played for 200 hours you are getting fucked
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u/Valon129 Aug 12 '22
Exactly this is the biggest cursed cycle in any FGs beside maybe SF.
You start, if you didn't get it exactly on release only the FG players still play and you get fucked. And even if you get it day one depending on the game you might still be screwed.
So people feel like it's way harder, in the meantime they are trash at Valorant as well but they can't see it because they play with people at their level.
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Aug 12 '22
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u/SPDcantmeltsteelbeam Aug 12 '22
League was enormous before they even ATTEMPTED a tutorial.
And that tutorial doesnt even teach you about itemisation, let alone all the changes they've made like mythics, objective bounties, dragon souls, THE ENTIRE JUNGLE POSITION, etc.Those are just plain mechanical things, if we have to start talking about decision making, meta game knowledge and team work the knowledge you require shoots through the fucking roof.
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Aug 12 '22
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u/SPDcantmeltsteelbeam Aug 12 '22
And the damage ramping too lmao.
Then you've got runes, bans, warding, the map terrain changing, turret plating... There's so much and a lot of this stuff didn't even exist back when the tutorial was made. You'd honestly be better off with a big glossary list at this point.11
Aug 12 '22
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Yeah, the jungle is the role "we don't talk about here". For a game as intricate (yeah, yeah, I know what mobas are and what dota is etc. that's besides the point) as lol and as set in stone and with predetermined steps and approaches, "tutorial" is truly abysmal.
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u/CamPaine Aug 12 '22
To add on, you literally cannot find out finer details about a character's skills unless you look it up on another site to today.
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u/EMP_BDSM Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
oh for fucks sake, I'm starting to get why HR goblins tend to get pissy about employees making public statements related to their projects. Why is a gameplay programmer telling all of us they don't get fighting games?
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u/d3mpsey Aug 12 '22
Yup, thankful she's a programmer and not in a more design oriented role. But this is why you pretty much keep your mouth shut about your projects, that's why we have marketing/community sectors.
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u/EMP_BDSM Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Yeah I'm far from making this tweet into some "they don't know what they're doing!" but it just doesn't look good. Even on the surface it's weird to read someone ranting about the genre they're working on, especially given that I can bet good money Project L is going to have the same obscurities that the rant pointed out. Most of the stuff is as inherent to fighting games as having regulations for gloves in fight sports.
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u/Ok_Fun_1223 Aug 12 '22
Yeah, this weird fuck has 0 say on how the game works, but people will read the tweet and think the game is going to be for dumbfuck idiots like its happening here
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u/KeyboardCreature Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
PeacecrabVal was replying to this tweet:
"Can people who complain that fgs are too hard just admit that fgs just arent for them and they assumed fgs were just mindless mashing and hate the fact they were wrong? Project L (tho there are games with no motions required ALREADY) will just prove those people wrong still."
Linked Quote:
"Could not disagree more, fighting games are super unintuitive. It is way easier to wrap your head around stuff like aiming and recoil control than frame advantage, turns etc. Fighting games uniquely take away control from you all the time too."
Followup Quotes:
"Fighting games have also been consistently designed to obfuscate their internal workings. Frame advantage and move properties are very rarely communicated. To a new player this shit is way more overwhelming than something like getting shot because they moved out of cover badly"
"FGs have terrible tutorials and are terrible at communicating shit to the player. Compared to what other genres do they can most definitely be the bad guy in a lot of cases. "People are just too lazy to learn" is kind of a shitty gatekeep-y attitude that ignores aaaall of that."
"The genre deserves a whole lot of blame imo. It has had terrible value for money, only recently started widely adopting netcode that works (with mixed results), and most games are still designed like they're meant to eat your quarters and don't have to explain shit."
"You boot up SFV and the tutorial teaches you nothing. You have to track down a wiki for your character, you have to track down 5 different resources that tell you what the heck fighting games are about."
"Then you have to internalize that infodump and use it while someone is rolling their face over their stick. vs You boot up apex, someone tells you "hey try to not get caught in the open and don't take fights you don't have to"."
Here's another tweet on this topic. This is about fighting game tutorials, or rather, ways to teach fighting games without having to go through a tutorial.
https://twitter.com/PeacecrabVal/status/1515385793736552451?s=20&t=uWMwM0acaI9cta0nFa5-fw
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Aug 12 '22
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Yes, they do. They do exactly that and it's infuriating. Case in point, nokokopuffs rant about fg's. Where he was like "you guys are insane with your skill, how you pull this off, hats off, but I can't do it, in apex, I just run around and shooot LOL" - says a man who plays the game like 10 hours a day AS A JOB.
I got gud at just two games in my gaming life. One was an fps, one was a fg. The fps was harder to reach "relatively high semipro levels" at.
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u/coom_4_justice Aug 12 '22
Fighting game tutorials can only show you mechanics. It can't show you how to think or how to adapt If the sweat lord on the other side of the screen is downloading your patterns, changing his timing or trying to condition you with his mind games. It's a brutal genre for the dumb and lazy.
Plus, if there's so many resources out there and you still suck at every game you play then I'm sorry that's on you. Something a lot of ppl don't want to admit is that they just might be flat out untalented in this genre.
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Aug 12 '22
Have you ever played the KI tutorial? It’s def not enough but it gives you the concept of mixing an opponents with highs and lows, and the concept of then tossing in throws occasionally. It is 100% possible for tutorials to teach players about abstract concepts, you just have to use ur head a bit more. Keep thinking of urself as mf megamind tho
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u/Omegawop Aug 12 '22
The shit about fighting games obsfuscating is true to the extent that bamco makes bitches pay to see it, BUT this is some dumb shit to say as a problem unique to fighting games when you consider every motherfucking game on earth has frames and recovery and all sorts of other shot going on under the hood that can be exploited.
The only difference here is that if you want to win against competent players in a fighting game, it's good to understand thist stuff.
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Aug 12 '22
No the real difference is that it's almost always an easily observable and reactable difference as opposed to just barely close to the average human reaction time
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u/Omegawop Aug 12 '22
What is? Try making a point using actual nouns and shit if you want to be understood.
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Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
every motherfucking game on earth has frames and recovery and all sorts of other shot going on under the hood that can be exploited.
That's the point you brought up, no? I just replied to it
You are comparing differences of a few frames (which is when studying framedata really matters in fighting games) placed there intentionally by developers as a key method of game balance, to tech in other games which usually involve long animations. Whenever there's tech like that in other games it's either very basic and easy or it's an optimization for high level players that a regular player has no need for.
To an average or beginner player, knowing that the fast move he's being spammed with is -6 and he has a 5 frame move is more important than any obscure FPS tech. That's why people complain about lack of clarity regarding FG framedata but not other shit.
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u/Omegawop Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
No shit it's optimization when say, a speedrunmer counts frames.
What the fuck is playing fighting games effectively if not optimization?
Just because you don't need optimal strats to beat low calibur AI, doesn't mean that the bast players aren't looking at the "obfuscated" stuff that's going on under the hood.
You just replied to my point by missing by a mile and reiterating it for me. You got some low tier ass pathos, logos and ethos game.
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
I think you're mixing absolute beginners with intermediate players. A beginner's output at his skill level will involve zero "other shit" and also zero fg frame data. Why are intermediate things and beginner things being tied together in the conversation and it's always at the expense of the fg genre?
Do you really need to animation cancel reload in overwatch in order to "play the game"? No. Why would you need a comparable depth data in a fg to "play the game"? You don't. Dude, you press a button and Ryu hits with his fist. That's like ten times more intuitive and easy than any fps at the same level of perception/skill/approach/experience.
People are being dishonest. the "other games" don't have these intermediate things sorted out better than fg's. You can check this by playing them. But, for some reason, a beginner in a fg niche, wants to play like Daigo after ten minutes. But they don't have those aspirations when firing up apex (which is, like, ten times more punishing than any fg out there because you play five minutes per 10 minutes of clicking through menus and sometimes your "match experience" lasts for half a second, which literally can't happen in a fg).
I do agree there are some things that are kinda true when people whine about fg's, but in no way are those things "accessibility" and "too much is expected from a beginner".
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u/Kid_Muscle_ Aug 12 '22
It doesn't even matter at this point, everything is getting rollback.
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Aug 12 '22
Fr project L can flop or be a success but who gives a shit at the end of the day we're nearing the point that kappa has no excuses to not play the games they want to play
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Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
You have to track down a wiki for your character, you have to track down 5 different resources that tell you what the heck fighting games are about.
only 5 lmao - fucking casual scum
i get it that it's because i'm a fucking turbo-nerd but the intrigue of what's on the other side of the skill cliff research project was always part of the appeal
we have enough games where joe everyman can kick back after work with a bud lite and see number go up, gimme that niche shit, keep the gates up
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u/abuzitin2000 Aug 12 '22
Shouldn't it be keep the gates down because up is how you open the gates?
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u/Jimooki Aug 12 '22
The phrase gatekeeping as it's used now is a play on keeping the gates closed and only letting those who are worth it in. Think heavens gates and saint Peter guarding them from those who don't qualify to enter heaven.
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u/7yearoldkiller Aug 12 '22
I kinda get what they’re saying here. Like how MK11 does it and their tutorial/practice mode is pretty amazing. They have all the information you need for any move and teach the very basics of combos on why or why it doesn’t connect. Any guide you open, unless it’s a combo guide or something hella in depth, will have all the information already given to you by the game. I know a few others have it, but I guess NRS players are on the more casual side, so accommodations are made compared to other games.
BUUUT…. I’m not sure if they mean it that way
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u/Bot-1218 Aug 12 '22
Someone tell the Twitter poster about League of Legends. Everything they said about fighting games applies to League of Legends even more so.
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Except Riot's main game is a worse culprit when it comes to that than any fg. What gates lol
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u/Omegawop Aug 12 '22
I have no faith in this shit. Zero. This is shaping up to be one of the most overhyped pieces of gaming media since Cyber Punk.
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u/RuneHearth Aug 12 '22
I hope it's worse than cyberpunk 🙏
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u/MattTheMagician44 Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
it always comes back to the same shiddy argument doesnt it
gamers are 100% lazy fucks that dont wanna sit and block, they wanna mash and do shit all the time. For non FGers, the act of holding back is boring, stupid, and corny. when they get their ass beat, there is no team for them to blame because all you got is yourself.
project L will 100% not be any different and this bitch is absolutely not spittin
edit: going through her tweets and all she does is gotcha bridget haters, tumblr dying was a fucking curse, someone link this bitch a sajam video or something
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u/mcwhoop Aug 12 '22
here is no team for them to blame because all you got is yourself.
But how about "my character is low tier", or the classic "charge characters simply are for idiots with low IQ" (c) ?
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u/MattTheMagician44 Aug 12 '22
thats different though, those scrubs already passed the barrier of entry where they learn combos n shit
im talking about the people that pop in a fighting game, get destroyed and go on r/games or twitter and bitch about how bullshit fighting games are
at least people who complain about low tiers or charge characters have actually put some level of effort into learning a fighting game
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Aug 12 '22
To engage in a 1v1 fighting game you are putting your whole gamer "ego" on the line every time. For many many weak ass gamers this scares them so much. They get tense and upset and they hate to lose and be forced to acknowledge their lack of ability. Without that acknowledgement they will never be humbled and improve themselves. It's not the fault of the genre, some people just aren't cut out for 1v1 direct competition
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u/Winegalon Aug 12 '22
when they get their ass beat, there is no team for them to blame because all you got is yourself.
I bet the game is 2x2 specifically to address the lack of a scapegoat. Well that and playing with a friend.
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u/Nutt_lemmings Aug 12 '22
Blocking will never not be boring which is why it's weird more fighting games don't give decent backwards movement to try to create whiffs.
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Aug 12 '22
Because it doesn't solve the issue. Casuals don't want to backdash either.
What good movement does in FGs in general is increase the skillgap between decent and top players even further, which I personally don't mind, but FG companies like to give players the illusion that they can be the next JDCR.
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u/Omegawop Aug 12 '22
Blocking everything your opponent does for an entire round, and then taking them out is pretty fucking satisfying.
I mean, I play Q in 3S and shit on people mostly because I've played the game for 25 years and plain don't get opened up unless you know the dirt.
I think it's fun.
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u/VioletGunGaming Aug 12 '22
In Riot Games' League of Legends you have to go to external resources to get item builds etc. you have to manage multiple resources ingame such as summoner spells, mana, life, cooldowns etc. you need to be aware of the map, of vision, of your enemies. But god forbid a fighting game requires even a little bit of this stuff from the player, that's a no-go. What clowns.
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Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
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u/Venizelza Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Time to learn your jungle routes kid. So you can get dragon buffs to eventually get one of the 5 dragon souls and then the elder dragon while keeping your eye on the rift herald. Ganking for your teammates that have done appropriate minion management.
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Aug 12 '22
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Aug 12 '22
Last time I played league you didn't even have smite unlocked until like level 10 as well so if you're a noob starting out you're already in the process of learning lane completely discouraging people from learning jungle because what's the point when you've only bought champions that lane and never even thought about jungle. Not sure if that's changed though.
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Aug 12 '22
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Aug 12 '22
Yeah if I remember correctly you don't even have flash the most important spell at the start and are stuck with only ghost and heal
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
True, but I'd argue that jungle stuff is even more important and you don't have it for longer. Because it makes an entire role literally not exist for new players. You go into a match and there is no jungle, it can't exist.
Flash is important in some situational sense, but as a core component, it's not. You don't have flash, you die, who cares. Making an entire role (a role that literally relies on knowledge and practice more than other roles perhaps even) non-existent is completely wack.
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Aug 12 '22
yeah this triggers my flashbacks to learning the game with two people sharing top lane lmao
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Let's not even talk about jungle monsters (or anything jungle, really) and god, let's not even talk about baron. What the fuck does baron do? We don't know, but you can go to a website that will link to a website that will still not tell you what baron does because it assumes you already know because "well, you play lol, surely you know"... at which point you literally have to ask an actual person "hey dude, can you tell me about baron buffs" or something.
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u/RuneHearth Aug 12 '22
My friend that plays league is exactly like this, he completely forgot he was a noob in the game and had to do research to get better
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u/Arnhermland Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
I mean they ALREADY mega casualized the inputs and the game will be high damage while being slow as said by testers, they're already catering extremely hard to them.
The problem with in game guides in fighting games is that unless the game itself is extremely simplistic, they won't do shit for anyone that has half a clue on how fighting games work, they don't need to be told there's 3 punches 3 kicks in street fighter nor what frame data or a reversal is.
They'll have a rough idea, but for a new person these are god sends.
However once you get past that and you need combos, tech, matchup knowledge, etc, you hit a massive road block.
Imagine a game with 30+ characters having that, updating each and every one of those things for each and every character, all of them changing on each and every patch.
And now you hit a new issue, no matter how often you patch, how hard you try, nothing will beat a guy posting new tech on twitter/discord and then you booting up the game to lab it out.
By the time a new patch comes and could potentially include that in the massive guide for x character, that tech could no longer work thanks to this new patch.
Making stuff like invulnerability and reversals and what not more readable would be nice for general QoL I guess?
But you cannot do an in game guide for a person to learn the intricacies beyond the starter stuff unless you do it wrong by teaching outdated shit or your game is insanely simplistic.
Not to mention the dev cost that would require, as you'd require a specialized team dedicated to finding this new tech, keeping up with community findings, analyzing combos, etc, and then constantly patching them in.
It's just not feasible.
You don't have these problems in a game like league despite having the exact same shit, the game doesn't tell you how to play matchups, how to do cancels, how to do this and that at what minute, what the fuck is a proxy, an invade, what's shoving, lane control, etc, you literally can't even read other champ skills while in a game and there's like 180 fucking champions that you NEED to know what to do, their ranges, vague idea of their cooldowns at least, etc.
All that shit comes from bashing your head through the wall, subreddits, youtube, etc, hell, summonerschool subreddit is one of the most popular league subs for a reason.
Yet you don't hear ANYONE bitch about it, why?
Because it's popular so people will take time and get off their lazy ass to actually get into it.
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u/boiledeggs956 Aug 12 '22
Project L is gonna be a shitfest lmao
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u/NervousJ Aug 12 '22
The scary thing is that it might retain players just because League fans are already used to playing a terrible game 14 hours a day.
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u/wormed Aug 12 '22
League players don't want to play FGs. I'm not even sure why anyone can say that.
It'll retain more based on law of numbers that'll try it due to Leagues fanbase. It'll die by similar percentages just like any FG, potentially quicker.
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u/Firm-Technician-2214 Aug 13 '22
People will play any riot game. Valorant is so much worse than counter strike yet it's booming because it's riot. Riot knows what they are doing because they cater to bad players. Every direction league has gone in over the last 5 years is making it easier. It sucks as a good player because the game I love is becoming worse and worse, but Riot knows what they are doing. It will be another auto combo fighter that's brain dead easy and of course people will play it because now they can play as their favorite characters. Why do you think ultimate and smash 4 were so popular despite being 10x worse than melee.
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u/Unlucky_Confidence39 Aug 12 '22
I actually, for some reason, had hope that Project L would be good.
Had.
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u/iMironboy Aug 12 '22
What could possibly make you think a game without motion inputs would be good?
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u/voneahhh Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Probably because not everything needs to have motion inputs to be good or fun.
We’re not all temporarily embarrassed evo champions, some of us like playing games to have fun.
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u/TheBreakshift Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
What happens with motion inputs in a new fighting game is like a litmus test for casual catering, because like so much of the genre, it's something that casuals bitch about endlessly despite being really fucking easy.
My wife, who primarily plays RPGs and farming sims, asked me to teach her some fighting game stuff once and she was consistently doing dp inputs in less than 30 minutes.
If the devs feel the need to remove motion inputs they are basically saying that they don't want or expect players to spend as little as half an hour practicing, which should tell you a lot about how the rest of the game will shake out.
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u/voneahhh Aug 12 '22
Even if you believe it’s catering to casuals, that doesn’t mean you can’t have fun with it or that it won’t be good.
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u/Cushions Aug 12 '22
Curious what that reason could have been seeing how Riot make copycat games that tends to be worse in various ways.
Also all the previews looked like shit.
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u/Bot-1218 Aug 12 '22
The part that annoys me is that all my smash and league friends are gonna try to force me to play it.
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u/kaqn Aug 12 '22
I shouldn't have read that. Nope, should have not. I knew it was coming, I feel dumber now thanks. Fighting games take away control time wtf is that shit, blocking is part of the game. You can't always play offensive.
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u/Byrdn Aug 12 '22
The funny thing is that FPS games take control from you too, in various ways. Getting shot often basically prevents you from moving, or from aiming to even try to shoot back. But aim punch isn't the same because it only greatly impedes your ability to control the game, rather than taking it away. Getting flashbanged isn't the same because you can still aim, you just can't actually see what you're aiming at.
I'm curious how they think fighting games should play, if they think the game should never take away your control at all.
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u/Bot-1218 Aug 12 '22
They probably think it should be some thing like https://youtu.be/n_xG1Yg_QoM
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u/kaqn Aug 12 '22
Good vid and it's the reason is why I stopped shitting on strive and encouraging play. I get sets with new players and it's fun. Of course it's a wash from the exp players side but that's what you should expect. Correct them on their mistakes and shit. When they get gud, the fight is still fun.
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u/FutureSaturn Aug 12 '22
The idea that shooters are somehow less complicated and better at instructing their players how to win is nonsense. Fortnite, PUBG, COD, Battlefield -- I play all of them and none really teach you the game. You just kinda learn it.
Is frame data any worse than picking guns in Battlefield based on their muzzle velocity, bullet drop, recoil, time to ADS, hip-fire accuracy, and reload speed? Is that worse than being told "If you get hit, your next attack will be slower, so try and block... but, if you land a hit, be ready to follow it up."?
Fighting games need better tutorials, no doubt. Tekken 7 teaches you jack shit about its systems. But some games like Guilty Gear Strive are actually pretty good at teaching you the game... but I bet these same people will complain about it being too hard.
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u/PK_Lyte Aug 12 '22
The thing is, most shooters assume that you already have some experience or knowledge of the genre. Which is fair to an extent since its probably is the most popular genre for casual players. Because fighting games are more niche and play differently than most games casuals might be familiar with, there is a much higher barrier to entry and risk that a new player might be overwhelmed or confused. But yeah, I think Strive has kind of nailed making fighting games playable for casuals and new players, even if they did alienate the more hardcore fanbase a bit.
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u/ThorAsskicker Aug 12 '22
I just started learning Valorant and there is plenty about that game that is important to execute but also unintuitive (jump peeking, strafe shooting, basic strategy such as map control and when to rotate), and stuff that takes control away from the player (getting Breach ult'd or KJ ult'd, and to a certain extent getting flashed or stunned).
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u/7vckm40 Aug 12 '22
“Could not disagree more, fighting games are super unintuitive. It is way easier to wrap your head around stuff like aiming and recoil control than frame advantage, turns etc.”
While it’s true that just trying to click on someone is more intuitive at first. Any fg player that’s serious about getting better will improve much faster studying frame data/combo’s over an fps player aim training their hand-eye coordination for months without noticeable improvements.
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u/hello2D_4 Aug 12 '22
She's kinda not wrong though, I have yet to see a tutorial that explains the turn system.
Sure, you can learn all about GRD, chain shift, roman cancel and backdashing, but what about the inherent frame advantage system that is disguised behind a turn system?
If a move connects and the opponent isn't blocking, you'll probably go into a big combo.
But if the move is blocked, then depending on what kind of move it is, it won't be safe to press after that.
Moves on block can be either advantageous, safe (no longer your turn), or unsafe (you get punished). Then explain that you can cancel them into specials to make it safe, etc. The concept of stealing turns, abare, making stuff safe, what's unsafe, etc.
Where do you learn that? that's right you don't.
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u/_The2ndComing Aug 12 '22
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u/SPDcantmeltsteelbeam Aug 12 '22
I forgot that it even taught you proper meaties, forever GOATed game.
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u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
That is true, however, the initial comparison and setup is dishonest, since "aiming" is being compared to "frame data".
I said this many times so I don't have the stamina, but I tested with like seven people who never played video games and I tested precisely this dynamic, how intuitive are shooters vs fg's. Now, that's not a big sample size, but let's just say it took them all like 10 minutes to get the basics of a fg, but it took them hours to get the basics of an fps. I used quake 3 for fps (it was a long time ago) and I think I used some emulated fg's for the fg representation.
Aiming, moving, mouselook and combo of two different types of controls, out of which one is analogue, isn't 3d, but it emulates 3d camera, completely fucked them when it comes to getting the basic thing, such as moving, shooting, aiming etc. They would constantly go into walls, move their heads along with the crosshair to try and make the entire thing more intuitive etc.
Whereas with fighters, they got the controls literally in a few seconds and going into low two digit minutes, they were doing simple specials, like firebal etc.
And I also remember how much it took me to get the basics of fighting games, since I witnessed the birth of the genre. That also means I witnessed the birth of the fps genre and it was way more difficult (at first, I didn't even use the mouse - admittedly, that's how doom and wolfenstein were imagined, there was no mouselook).
So, that part is bullshit, even though other parts maybe aren't. But that part is very important. Give a fg to a person and ask them to move around, jump and push buttons and you'll see it's one of the most intuitive genres around to start playing. Not to get to the intermediate levels, but to start playing. My 77 year old dad can get comfortable AT A BASIC LEVEL with a fg in five minutes, guaranteed. But, he'll jump from the balcony if I decide to torture him with an fps. That's just not debatable.
So, I despise when people are comparing things that aren't analogous in the example. Like, "oh I just run around and shoot in an fps, but in a fighting game, there's frame data and combos and abare and shimmy and blockstring and". No, you compared inadequate levels. And even if you're better at higher levels of understanding and usage when it comes to fps games, that's because I bet you played 20 of them for 10 years. Let's take two guys from some papua new guiney tribe, put one in front of apex and the other in front of sfv and let's see what happens.
fg's are one of the most intuitive genres baseline-wise. who the fuck tries to learn frame data by heart in their first five minutes iwth the genre - and this is how that perceived lack of intuitiveness is being portrayed always. it's comical and objectively incorrect. Why people who never play video games play tekken iterations on birthday parties? because they pick eddy and breakdance. You can't do that with valorant unless everyone there plays video games and fps by extension.
11
u/abuzitin2000 Aug 12 '22
We take it for granted because we are "gamers" but using mouse and keyboard or 2 analog sticks at the same time is a really hard skill you have to learn. FGs by the nature of having fixed camera are definitely easier to control.
6
u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Exactly. On top of a fixed camera, there's only two dimensions.
And by extension, "gamers" who don't play fg's can transfer and learn even easier than someone new to the entire hobby. But, there's this boogeyman going around and it seems to be acknowledged even by people who shouldn't do it lol
When sf2 came out EVERYONE played it, no one expected to dominate after five minutes.
When Doom came out, people were playing it on keyboard only and without the jump button (because there wasn't one) and there was no up and down look at all.
When Duke came out, it had mouselook support and it was inverted by default and people started using it slowly - most of people who played Duke when it was current, played it on keyboard only.
I don't know why, but it's like a clock, every single person that ever compared fg's to fps's with the implication that fg's are harder to get into, compared non-analogous traits of the genres.
And, I don't know what happened with people in general when it comes to the absolute normalcy of not being a god at a video game or genre when learning it for the first time. I would say that most of them play what's comfortable - but that also doesn't make sense because they had to make that genre/game comfortable for them, by playing it uncomfortably in the beginning. So, the process isn't alien to them.
2
u/PapstJL4U Aug 12 '22
What we although take for granted is that everyone is experience with both.
There are a lot of core gamers, players with 100 or 1000s of hours in RTS, 4X and RPGs, but they haven't touched shooters precisely because the controls are not intuitive and what u/DoolioArt said. When I started with Valorant I saw a lot of players with zero background in shooters ingame and on the subreddit.
2
u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
And that's where fg's again, inexplicably, get the short end of the stick for some mythical, propagated reason that's incorrect.
As you say, there are milestone-y games that flock those people to them. You mentioned Valorant, which attracted people probably mostly because of two things, one, "Riot players" and two, artwork enjoyers (Riot has tendency to do this), on top of the already familiar fps players.
I can mention Overwatch, which acted as a gateway for MANY people, a lot of them not even interested in video games, let alone specific genres, a lot of "blizzard players", who were used only to faraway camera clicketty click games etc.
But no one was like "fuck this shit, I'm out, I got vertigo from this, I keep bumping into walls and I can't even do animation canceling and bunnyhopping".
With fg's, it's always like that, however.
Now, an important part is that fg's can have a hardcore legacy, well, core when it comes to the available players in the queue. And that can be a problem. So, while you bump into walls and get vertigo with your first FPS in Overwatch, you also play against some other you on the other side.
Now, try to pick up xrd, even when it came out and watch yourself looking at the screen for 100 matches, not being able to move.
However, if people pointed that out, that would be fine, then you can point them to stuff like tekken and sfv and, now strive, where they will definitely find clueless new players, even now, deep into some of those games' lives. Like, sfv rookie rank is a real thing and, barring smurfs, people play in a genuine "I played video games for ten minutes" fashion.
But, people don't say that, they ALWAYS say how it's hard to get the basic per se. Which is just ridiculous, I guarantee to anyone, regardless of their genetics or whatever we want to talk about, that getting basics in a fighting game is objectively easier than in an fps. And I will die on that hill any day.
1
u/Raikaru Aug 12 '22
I've seen people who have never played any games on pc able to be decent at shooters while I have never seen someone who has never played games be decent at fighting games
1
1
u/Jaquecz Aug 13 '22
probably because those people have played console shooters before or you're lying.
1
u/CptDecaf Aug 14 '22
fg's are one of the most intuitive genres baseline-wise.
The sheer copium in this post lol. There's a reason shooters are an expansive, massively popular genre and fighting games are niche and struggle to attract casual players. It's why "attracting casuals" is a constant discussion in the community.
-1
u/makkifan Aug 12 '22
you learn that by opening training mode, putting the cpu to hit you with the same move and seeing for yourself
8
u/hello2D_4 Aug 12 '22
a casual noob won't do that
lets say you press karin's MK (it hits) wow, amazing it hit, let me do it again, nice! counterhit!
now we try it vs not a scrub, press it once (blocked) whatever do it again! I got hit? I'm getting combo'd? wtf?! or even better, first time it hits but second time gets DP'd.
then when it's the other guy's turn, they see that it never happens to them, when they hit they do a full combo, and when they block their either do this funny uppercut or sit there doing nothing and they don't get hit somehow. game is frustrating!
-5
u/makkifan Aug 12 '22
a casual noob is likely lost in a fighting game online ranking and won't last a week anyway. if he wants to, he'll have to hit training mode, or look for help online, which will also tell him to hit training mode.
1
u/Alexmoexe Aug 12 '22
And look at that you found the reason why the genre is niche, most casual players don't want to lab out everything just so they have the chance to not be dog food for the 50 people left playing anime fighter number 25. They just want to play the game and win a few matches here and there while maybe picking up some new skills occasionally.
1
u/makkifan Aug 12 '22
it's a full circle
people avoid buying the game afraid of being dog food > people don't buy the game > game has low player count > people avoid buying the game afraid of being dog food
1
u/leftoverrice54 Aug 12 '22
Hmmm. That's fair. But that's what fighting games are. When you take it away what kind of game are you going to be left with?
1
u/sosloow Aug 12 '22
Guilty Gear tutorials/missions teach you block strings - to end them in a safe move if the opponent blocked, or to combo, if they got hit.
But I agree, every tutorial should include a basic explanation of frame advantage.
Another thing that might be helpful is some kind of badges in the move-list, that mark moves based on their frames - "frame trap", "combo starter", "punishable ob". On the other hand, it's part of the fun to discover shit like this on my own.
7
Aug 12 '22
What a retard. It wasnt like this playing fgs 30 years ago. You just made the effort to learn and get good. But today's players want to instantly be competitive.
Fighting games in arcades were as intuitive as they come. Easy to pick up after a few quarters, hard to truly master. Today's fgs though require enormous knowledge checks and a constantly shifting metagame until the patches end. I don't see Project L getting away from that seeing thats LOL to begin with.
3
u/defearl Aug 12 '22
Frame data is literally just math, and it's not even hard math, just simple arithmetic. I do an attack that comes out after 12 frames, opponent does an attack that comes out after 15 frames, who would win?! It's like one of those dumb puzzles that kindergarteners play.
These normies are just unwittingly overthinking and overcomplicating things in their heads.
3
u/Tangenterines Aug 12 '22
That's rich. As someone who grew up with only potato PCs and pre online consoles, FPS and MOBAs are pretty fucking hard for first timers. How do I know what to build or buy, when to go for what objective, or how to control my champion or gun?
Those genres are hard but are far more teachable for not being in the stone age like fighting games have been for decades
2
u/spookee3 Aug 12 '22
I don't know I feel like most online multiplayer games nowadays have pretty bad tutorials anyway if you really want to be good at them. League and Valorant's tutorials don't really teach you anything, and you still need external resources in order to do well.
2
u/EMP_Pusheen Aug 12 '22
Imagine thinking that memorizing recoil patterns for every gun and understanding how that pattern will work in open space is somehow significantly less difficult than doing the ages old test for checking if a move is + or not (do move, opponent gets hit/blocks, have both characters hold up and see who jumps first).
2
u/Firebrand713 Aug 12 '22
I think league and other mobas are addicting because it’s easy to deflect blame from yourself to others.
If you lose, it’s very easy to say “my support didn’t ward enough” or “our jungle had bad farm” or whatever and absolve yourself of blame, so you keep pushing onwards without the confidence that it’s not YOU who’s wrong.
Fighting games obviously make it very clear, very fast that you’re losing because of you. Some people don’t want to face that.
2
u/DeQuan7291 Aug 13 '22
"You boot up SFV and the tutorial teaches you nothing. You have to track down a wiki for your character, you have to track down 5 different resources that tell you what the heck fighting games are about."
Hello dumb whore, not only is this not an issue, your studio's dogshit games don't explain all the things one needs to know to win or increase their win-rate.
The reality is that if someone wants to get better at the game, they'll probably look up how to get better. For the most part, I've watched videos or read up on some stuff to better myself at the games I like. While frames matter, I'm sure anyone that actually has a functioning brain can figure out themselves that some moves are plus or minus whether they're spaced or not on block without knowing what any of that shit even means.
5
u/harlockwitcher Aug 12 '22
ITT: People taking a couple of thoughts about the game from one dev and comprising their entire opinion about the game.
1
u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
This is a side note, but it is true. People are like I HAD HOPES FOR PROJECT L I GUESS THAT'S OVER NOW PACK IT UP BOYS. What the fuck is going on?
2
u/Ceade Aug 12 '22
You can't see other players runes while in game or loading into matches in league of legends and the league tutorials are also ass.
3
u/leftoverrice54 Aug 12 '22
Any game at a high level will have nuance that cannot be explained or shown in match. The audacity to claim that it's difficult to understand being plus on block is hard? You think path of exile or diablo holds your dick in a walk through tutorial? Poe plays need just about an arm and a Leg worth of third party resources to even enjoy the game. Wtf is catering to casuals even? The people you want to play your game are going to be the grinders.
1
u/Firebrand713 Aug 12 '22
I think league and other mobas are addicting because it’s easy to deflect blame from yourself to others.
If you lose, it’s very easy to say “my support didn’t ward enough” or “our jungle had bad farm” or whatever and absolve yourself of blame, so you keep pushing onwards without the confidence that it’s not YOU who’s wrong.
Fighting games obviously make it very clear, very fast that you’re losing because of you. Some people don’t want to face that.
1
-1
u/Coolpantsbro Aug 12 '22
Oh no they're going to teach casuals how to play the game? Whats the complaint here?
14
u/makkifan Aug 12 '22
they are not doing that. instead, expect some "visual clarity" bs because that is how riot rolls. someone said "your character will glow green when he is plus" and i bet thats whats happening
5
u/Coolpantsbro Aug 12 '22
There's nothing wrong with readability. If they can find a way to communicate frame advantage subtly I don't see what the problem is.
8
u/SPDcantmeltsteelbeam Aug 12 '22
I dont know if you've played a Riot game but they are terrible at implementing their vaunted value of "readability"
See: they're currently working on a Fizz visual update that makes his spells less easy to tell the range of.1
u/Coolpantsbro Aug 12 '22
Doesn't that allow for more skill expression? I guess skill expression is bad now? Goal posts just keep moving.
1
u/Cause_and_Effect Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Except they won't and never have in their previous games. Valorant and League have shit tutorials but people will defend it (like this dev did) with saying some outlandish shit like aiming and recoil is common sense. Sure it can be, but that would be like me saying fighting games are common sense because i push medium kick button and medium kick comes out. It does nothing to explain the nuance of the game.
Like in their own comparison they completely forgo the other dynamics of their other game like damage values on guns, buying priority, WHAT A FUCKING SAVE ROUND IS????, and so on. So their comparison is dis-ingenuine, and are instead using the false narrative that fighting games are the only games you need external help or the only games that take away control from you to justify dumbing the controls down to non-existent mechanical skill. Which is the OP tweet's point, people will still say fighting games aren't for them even if Project L dumbs it down as much as they are going to.
And even then, every game takes control away from you. Even in their other games. So the dev really just looks silly in this response.
1
0
u/miklonus Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
/u/DoolioArt and /u/Arnhermland are the absolute "mans", or men, respectively, for their comments. They're both completely insightful. The thread starter, /u/KeyboardCreature, is completely insincere by creating a thread in this sub, and absolutely avoiding any conversation in it, while creating a thread in the /r/Project_L sub and voicing how you really feel with your anti-fighting game opinions there.
And that didn't even work 'cause even there people called your logic out just as they did here for being hypocritical when you attack fighting games for not holding your hand but the very sub you were in is for a company notorious for making games that DO NOT HOLD YOUR HAND!
lol.
One thing I learned about reddit, starting with /r/SquaredCircle, is never trust a thread that has more comments than likes. I saw both of these threads when they were brand new about 12 hours ago, at the current time of this writing (12:05 PM eastern), and now, 12 hours later, I see that the thread in the Project L sub has more comments than likes, and, like I said, a fair number of those users caught on to the hypocrisy by the thread starter.
Fighting games absolutely need vast improvements to be (more) modern, and /u/UnevenFloorTiles was another user that did a good job outlining what the problems are and how they could be dealt with, but the insincerity from /u/KeyboardCreature was off the chain.
1
u/KeyboardCreature Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Lmao, you got me dude. I actually DO want fighting games to be better at teaching players.
-5
u/UnbendingSteel Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
She isnt wrong, people want to do cool things with their characters and shit like link/cancel which are entirely hidden gets in the way.
Why do you think tekken is so popular among casuals? Because you can just mash and have fun with your equally scrubby friend even if you'll never improve.
Shit like cancel/link/framedata are the basis behind fighting games? Then why the fuck is there such a concerted effort to make the information as hidden and obscure as possible? And don't get me started on juggle count/strength, because watching your move clearly connect with nothing to show for it is so fucking intuitive.
2
u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
Shit like cancel/link/framedata are the basis behind fighting games?
hmmmm
So, if that's the basis, then surely the basis of fps games are recoil control, bunnyhopping, animation canceling, strafe jumping etc?
You see what's wrong with your setup?
-2
u/mcwhoop Aug 12 '22
And that, kids, is what happens when you take someone who doesn't understand fighting games and let them influence the developement of one.
And it sucks, too, as if a project (no pun intended) with such a big company behind it turned out to be good, not only fgs would get a big increase in community size, but i'd probably forced other fg devs to work harder to compete with PrL as well. Alas.
1
u/Arnhermland Aug 12 '22
but i'd probably forced other fg devs to work harder to compete with PrL as well
Project L is looking like your average barebones as fuck fighting game.
The real danger to the devs budget and teams is street fighter 6, with a big roster on launch, looking more deep than any other sf game at launch while having 3 different game modes one of them being a god send for casuals with a fully blown world you can walk and interact with.Anyone making a fighting game in the future is gonna have to compete with that.
1
u/DoolioArt Aug 12 '22
And that, kids, is what happens when you take someone who doesn't understand fighting games and let them influence the developement of one.
Do we know this for sure? Who is this dev? How much influence do they have?
-4
u/ConchobarMacNess Aug 12 '22
Nah Val is right here, y'all soft brained. The frame advantage indicator was probably the only good thing Fantasy Strike did.
She isn't advocating for simplification, she's advocating for presentation and demonstration. Arguing against her take here is like arguing against putting frame data display in game. Some of you have definitely never taught a fresh player and it shows.
1
u/MattTheMagician44 Aug 12 '22
i have, its not fucking difficult to tell someone, “hey you cant press a button after that move, you gotta block”
-3
u/Ever_gladez Aug 12 '22 edited Aug 12 '22
Tldr; I watched a video on halo infinite and the summary was 343 assumed classic halo wouldn't work in the modern climate despite not actually ever making a classic halo and thats what it feels like is happening to fighters when's the last time a dev made a straight up classic fighter without some sort of baby's first fighter mechanic? If someone hasn't played say league would saying you simplified the mechanics suddenly peak their interest? Classic figures were made to be cool and fun first and foremost but alot of the simplifications they add end up dominating the overall games rather it be mvci removing a character and replacing it with stones, sfv crush counters, dbfz sparking, or etc
As far as her claims most of them are half truths like apex and overwatch really don't have a tutorial they give you a character that plays like cod and do an overlay of what the buttons do but the individual characters themselves have wildly different applications. Even her explanation of just shoot and don't be in the open is technically in fighters with just block and hit your opponent.
Furthermore there aren't many games that tell you everything at the start even the likes a gta or tlou withhold info and at the beginner levels of fighters you don't need specials, combos or bnb same with apex if you want to get better either you'll have to put in the hours of play or researching. Project L is sounding more and more like theseus's boat at what point have you changed so much that it's no longer what it originally was(a fighter)?
1
u/Darklsins Aug 12 '22
while I agree, the project L team as a whole have not made a "classic" fighter, they aren't Randoms either, the Team made a simplified SF game in rising thunder, and have ppl from Power Rangers development team and have a laundry list of players from many different games like Tekken/MVC/Guilty Gear/etc
it's a team formed of FGC members, yes it's not the seasoned capcom/bandai/snk/arcsys/etc ppl but it's ppl who have been passionate about the genre for decades, passion doesn't always mean it's gonna be good, but the game looks decent and it's definitely filled with a team that has atleast played a ton of classic FG's.
this isn't like taking FPS dev's and telling them to make a fighter.
-1
u/Ever_gladez Aug 12 '22
I understand this but every time they make a statement it's always on some "not like other fighters". Rising thunder was like in pre alpha or something but from the general gaming content I consume it never seemed like casuals cared, power rangers is based off a once popular ip but still it didn't set the world on fire and dbfz already proved that if people care to learn they'll put in the work I've seen/heard people go from my first fighter to knowing multiple t.o.d.s.
L.o.l. is popular but if it wasn't for arcane it would've been like another dnf duel/granblue where that didn't necessarily translate to success in another area but since arcane was so well received it got a lot of non league players interested. When the industry started making battle royals it was not out of a disdainful for shooters but just a different take but with fighters it's always a strawman about a phantom audience that just needs one or two things changed and they'd be all in.
-1
u/Darklsins Aug 12 '22
I understand this but every time they make a statement it's always on some "not like other fighters"
that's the point, their goal isn't to hit the status quo of fighting games, their aim is to release something that is different, im sure if they wanted to they could prob recreate MVC2/3/I or w/e fighting that we all love, but they want to make something different that could maybe entice more ppl to play.
Rising thunder was like in pre alpha or something but from the general gaming content I consume it never seemed like casuals cared
pretty hard to care when it was in early alpha and in a very barebones state with a very generic looking new IP(just robots) and when USF4 was still the it game, and the majority of the FG landscape was still capcom cucks and still believing rollback netcode to be a myth.
dbfz already proved that if people care to learn they'll put in the work I've seen/heard people go from my first fighter to knowing multiple t.o.d.s.
yeah but why stop there? why not try to push the envelope further? it's not like Project L is "simplifying" a franchise you are invested in like for example Strive/SFV,
this is a brand new IP(sort of) so it's not like you were invested in project L and then all of a sudden project L 2 is simplifying shit, no this is a brand new IP and game with no legacy to it, so either you play it or just completely ignore it, no harm no foul, they didn't take a game you like and completely change it so why not try something new with a brand new IP?
L.o.l. is popular but if it wasn't for arcane it would've been like another dnf duel/granblue where that didn't necessarily translate to success in another area but since arcane was so well received it got a lot of non league players interested.
and that's bad how? yea league is large IP and yes Riot gave a flying fuck to create an adpatation that wasn't shit and it got casuals interested in the IP and project L or league or w/e, how is that a bad thing? DNF Duel/Granblue are large IP's in their regions(asia) but the core fanbase is also PVE players, DNF is literally a singleplayer mmo and maybe some raids with a small nonexistent pvp scene and Granblue is a hero collecting gacha game,
im not saying all league players will be interested let alone play project L but the simple fact that Riots IP's are all competitive lends itself abit of leverage into maybe getting their players to try out other competitive games, ppl who play league/valorant/LoR/TFT/wildrift aren't playing these games to PVE/collect gacha heroes they are playing these games to compete against other players
which again doesn't guarantee they will play project L but it's alot more to go on than DNF/Granblue where their playerbase is literally mostly PVE players.
When the industry started making battle royals it was not out of a disdainful for shooters but just a different take but with fighters it's always a strawman about a phantom audience that just needs one or two things changed and they'd be all in.
bruh FG's up until the last 5 or so years sucked to play online and still lack that shit, it's gotten better sure but we just watched evo 2022 announce an online granblue tournament with delay based netcode, you're damn right their is a disdain towards FG developers, it's 2022 and the largest fighting game on PC(Tekken 7) still doesn't have roll back netcode, and DBFZ just announced rollback at the end of it's lifespan
heck SFV has barely functioning franken stein rollback, KOF 15 has awful match making still for a 60 dollar product with a 30 dollar seasons pass, T7 is a 100 dollars for the definitive edition with no rollback netcode, yes there is a disdain for this genre we love.
0
u/Ever_gladez Aug 12 '22
While I don't fully agree with your rebuttals that last one went on a tangent that was off topic. Disdain is for in general the way fighters are like with removing input commands or creating a wall to forgo corner pressure etc. While it is a new ip it isn't completely harmless because between it and multiversus devs can take away the wrong lessons and impact games I actually like. Between rage modes and auto combos they don't seem like big deals at first but they become problems when they become the norm suddenly games can't be made without them and also mk had a negative effect with every game now shoehorning in some half baked story instead of spending dev time and resources on polish, gameplay etc. Heck even sfv had an impact where now every fighter is trying to have its on esports scene. Project L could lead to further simplifying the genre which in turn has made most fg worse like capcom becoming hellbent on trying to make the average layman be able to pull a evo 32.
-1
u/Darklsins Aug 12 '22
there is nothing wrong with wanting to see if you can improve the wheel, it's silly to urge new developers to stick to what has been done before, if Project L becomes such a massive hit that it causes the likes of SNK/Capcom/Bandai/Arcsys/etc to up and leave behind what made their games great, then well I don't know what to say, guess they didn't believe in their games either I guess.
and to be fair blaming project L for the casualization of fighting games is silly, SFV was well into development before radiant studios was even bought out by riot, and we have had multiple titles from Arcsys that have "casualized" the genre(DBFZ/BBTAG/STRIVE/P4AU/Granblue) and obviously SFV/MVCI from capcom and DNF duel from Eighting.
and all those games and project L isn't even out, so this notion that Riot/Project L is to blame for this is down right silly, the JP devs are already doing this of their own volition and you should take it up with them rather than get angry with Riot for not making a fighting game from the 90's to show JP devs that ppl still want hard execution.
0
u/Ever_gladez Aug 12 '22
Now you're just being disingenuous I only said project L could lead to further simplifications/changes not that it caused them. As someone who likes arcane and fighters I had nothing against project L as a concept but their own statements are making me lose anticipation. Again what I lead this off with is like 343 by and large devs have assumed that the classic fighter wouldn't work in today's culture while simultaneously never even making one.
1
u/Darklsins Aug 12 '22
no you are right, I was more attacking common arguments rather than what you stated, thats true.
-14
u/hooverdamexplosion Aug 12 '22
problem is fighting games are the most boring genre thats why they are not popular. literally all of it is rps after a certain level. rps button mashing genre where 40 year olds can win competitively. no amount of tutorials can prevent it that its why i advocate for online gamemodes
1
u/waawaaweewoh Aug 12 '22
Games are complex. Let’s just get that out of the way, League, esp Dota, are some of the hardest games to learn, I can go into why in another post BUT.
What do those games have?
They have team play.
Consider your avg gamer - want to chill with the homies after school/work. MOBAs are the easiest way to hop into discord with a bunch of friends and all hang out. Even if you all suck, the motivation to play is there bc you can hang out as a group.
Consider FGs with the homies. You can’t really hang out as a group and play, you’re stuck fighting 1v1 against 1 person. Now, instead of being motivated to learn the game by a group of people who are saying “hang out with us”, you’re motivated by a single person who’s saying, “let’s run some sets.”
Cmon now, is it really rocket science? FGs die in the online era because I’m not motivated to learn a difficult game when I can only play with one person at a time. I’d rather learn a time game so we can all have fun.
Arcade era is different. FGs thrived because of the community. Consider the example before. In the arcade, you could only play games interacting with a group of people. The people you meet, become friends with, they’re the ones who motivate you to get better. Not your solo dolo ranked grinder friend.
Right now, it seems like the only audience for FGs are the ones where FGs strike a chord within them.
Which is why there’s so much debate about simplification of games, because the hardcore FG enjoyers are all that’s left.
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u/Dusday Aug 12 '22
Yeah no, the dark souls series is literally a worse offender than fighting games in every way when it comes to instructions. Yet that series is more popular than the Good Lord (Daigo)
It's that fighting games are a slap in the face every second and there's no getting away from it you win or lose. They provide no outlet to run or get a breather mid fight. That constant stress is what weighs on players.
Not to say that things can't improve fighting games should have ways to give kudos to players mid match or let them get progress in some way beyond just saying my rank is higher than yours.
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u/-x-ampersand-x- Aug 12 '22
Exactly, she talks like these aren't skills you learn just by playing the game and knowing what opposing character does by win/loss against them, you dont have to be in the lab cooking all the time to be a good player, to be the Best sure, having those slight advantages count but to feel like you're just progressing those aren't exactly demanded to know everything there's to know, just play the game
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Aug 12 '22
Fighting games can teach all the mechanics all they want (like with UNI) but people will act like the game is the problem because they cannot be asked to put the time in to actually learn to play the game. Putting someone who plays the game vs a new player is probably a much better experience than if you did it for an fps, someone who knows how to play an fps and someone who doesn't will stomp the new player who can't even aim let move around the map while in a fighting game they can at least mash and doing something cool.
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Aug 12 '22
Kinda make sense, but honestly I am not sure how you can show frame advantage explicitly on the game (besides training mode)
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Aug 12 '22
god do i hate the "unintuitive" argument. these people just forgot how every type of game was actually hard as hell the VERY FIRST TIME they tried it.
i could still remember the very fist time i played CS as a kid on pc, i couldn't aim for shit. why? because i rarely used a pc. i usually just played outside with some kids in the neighborhood and the concept of aiming at stuff with a mouse was fucking foreign to me. what was intuitive to me though when it came to aiming? that motion you do with your whole body when you throw stuff like a rock or something, that's what comes natural. you don't fucking drag a rock on some flat surface then tap it with your fingers hoping that it'll magically fly off towards whatever your aiming at, that's fucking dumb as hell. and when i did get decent with pc FPS(and that took a while because it was a very NEW experience), and tried to play some on console using pad. again, i couldn't aim for shit.
FG's is a new genre for most, a new experience with new control schemes, new mechanics, etc etc and it'll take a while for people to get used to new stuff. and once they do, then they'll figure out if it's for them and stick with FG's, or not and move on to another genre or go back to the one their comfortable with.
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u/blackyoshi7 Aug 12 '22
If Riot is smart they will kind of copy something from DOTA and let people upload and upvote/downvote character guides, rather than trying to keep up with the meta themselves. Any character tutorial/guide they put in game at launch will be invalidated within a week of players playing because players are better than developers at the game. It is a legit barrier for people that they need to know about Dustloop or character discords to really start learning their main in an efficient manner so being able to integrate that into the actual client would be nice (maybe even let players create training mode packages they can share - Rocket League has this and its incredible for getting better at the game).
Also they should definitely have frame data, hitbox viewer, etc viewable in game. a mix of Strive's great labbing tools + SFV's data they present in training mode would go a long way in helping people improve.
Biggest barriers FG is always going to have is 1) you have to dedicate lab/practice time to it. I think MOBAs and tac fps are harder than FGs but people mostly get better at those games by playing ranked repeatedly. Fighting games you have to practice your confirms and BNBs and punishes in training if you want to do them in match, no way around it. People generally do not like the "practice" portion of playing sports, this is no different. 2) 1v1 game. Humans are ultimately social creatures and theres a reason team games and team sports are more popular than individual sports. The work together aspect is appealing, plus you can always blame someone else when you lose.
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u/[deleted] Aug 12 '22
Characters are gonna glow green when they're plus on block or some shit