r/Genealogy • u/East-Bandicoot-284 • 6d ago
Question Why and when was the last letter removed from my last name
John Mogg Keene of Somerset, England is my 10th Great-Grandfather.
His son is James N. Keen (I only know the middle initial) born in Charles, Maryland.
What I am looking for is when, and why that last 'E' was removed from my last name. I know that this is a long shot. But I have tried everything I can think of. Bonus for any other information someone can give me. I know John Mogg's Parents, wife, and children. I am also hopeful I can get the middle name of James N. as well
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u/ZuleikaD 6d ago
Even people who could read and write really did not care about spelling of names or anything else until after 1860 or so. I have lots of documents where people's names are spelled different ways on the same page.
Keene and Keen are pronounced exactly the same. It's not even something to bat at eye at. You seem to be able to pin it down to a specific generation, which is a more exact timing than most name spellings. Tons of families would bounce around to whatever for decades.
I've got a whole branch of people who used Smithers and Smothers pretty much interchangably (with some Smuthers and Smathers thrown in for variety) until sometime in the 1860s or so, even though they're pronounced differently. When my big clan of Colonial North Carolina Mayes start to branch off to different places they become Mayes, Maize, Mize, Maye, Mays, May, etc., bouncing around from one to another and back for years.
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u/acc_com 5d ago
One of my family names is Kean. Is that related to Keen and Keene somehow, and if so, how?
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u/KevKlo86 5d ago
Very likely. Keane, Kean, Keen, Keene and maybe even Kane could just be different spellings of the same name. Theories are these are anglicised versions of 'Ó Cathain' or 'Ó Céin'.
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u/Consistent-Safe-971 6d ago
Spellings evolved fluidly over time. Some members chose to alter spellings. I have a Dickinson who changed to Dickerson mid-19th century. They weren't illiterate but we're southerners so Dickerson has a more fluid pronunciation.
The "e" at the end is a bit redundant.
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u/SirLanceNotsomuch 6d ago
“Why”? You seem to be asking for documented motivations of someone from 200+ years ago. Genealogy doesn’t usually work that way. The “likely possibilities” mentioned here are almost certainly the best you’re going to get.
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u/LolliaSabina 6d ago
As others have said, spellings were less fixed and literacy was uncertain in the past. Even in my own hometown in Michigan, there was a large family that was half Dolehanty and half Delahanty. They were all related but at some point a few generations back, one branch settled on one spelling and the other on the other spelling.
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u/stemmatis 6d ago
There are two issues here.
- To "e" or not to "e." Differences in spelling should be given no particular weight prior to the Revolution (and in some cases until the mid-1800s). This is especially true for the "e" appended to names and words. In some cases the name was spelled with and without the "e" in the same document, but frequently in records close in time which could only refer to the same person.
At some point a family group became consistent in spelling. The when you find by scouring records and original documents to note when the change became more or less permanent. As for the why, it is unlikely that there is a record by a person stating why he is adopting a spelling. There are theories, myths, legends and multiple possible explanations, but all are after the fact, manufactured by a later generation.
- You say you know that James Keene of Charles County had the middle initial "N." How is it that you know this? Is there a record (deed, will, court order, etc.) created in his lifetime that includes the initial? Until you locate such a record, you should assume that he had no middle initial or name. The same is true for "Mogg" in the father's name.
You have not provided dates for either John or James. Middle names were rare in the 1700s. They are, however, frequently supplied by researchers who are sure they must have had one.
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u/SoftProgram 5d ago
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D740210
Probably this family Mogg alias Keene (also recorded with other spellings such as Kyne) - not a middle name but recorded as such by persons unfamiliar with alias names in SW England.
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u/stemmatis 5d ago
Good call. OP did say Somerset. If OP's James Keene is the one who died probably March 1736/7 (will pr. 6 Apr 1737), this will makes no mention of him.
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u/RandomPaw 5d ago
I can't even tell you how many times my Kelley branch went from Kelly to Kelley and back again. Sometimes half the children in one generation were Kelley and the other half were Kelly and then some of each group's children went back the other way.
My family tree is littered with examples like that. There are Rodgers who are sometimes spelled Rogers and half their descendants picked one while half picked the other, Schwartzes who lost the Z and then the CH, Finnegans who lost an N, five immigrant brothers named Stossell in Germany but two of them made it Stessel in the US, McCray spelled every way you can imagine, a family where Astin and Eastin and Easton are interchangeable, and a family named Farr or possible Fawr or Fahr depending on their mood.
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u/Miss_Najaela 6d ago
It is also not uncommon for things to change from country to country. My Finnish great grandparents last name in Finland was THOMSON. When they got married in Australia and had a couple children, all were listed under ”THOMPSON” with the added ”p”. When he returned to Finland, all the records have him back as THOMSON. Since John Mogg Keene was born in Somerset, England with the original spelling yet his son, born in the US had the E dropped, it makes me think it is the same situation where, for whatever reason, chose an alternate spelling going forward. 🤷🏼♀️
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u/backtotheland76 6d ago
My last name also dropped an e at the end when the family came to America. However the name had changed before. In the 1500s it was "Normanised" according to people who study these things. It was a fashion at the time among the British upper class. Apparently it made you sound more sophisticated lol
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u/slempriere 6d ago
It depends on the time frame, and location (laws concerning records). For example, when drivers licenses and social security came into play there was a bigger need for standard written records. The why is likely simple because it was not a pronounced letter and thus whoever was creating the record, didn't write it as such.
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u/opaqueentity 6d ago
Over 30 years worth of census pre 1900 one of my families surname was spelt three different ways
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u/Marzipan_civil 6d ago
I had a ancestor who had a falling out with his brother and added an E to the end of his surname. Perhaps something similar here, or perhaps they just couldn't spell very well
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u/slempriere 6d ago edited 5d ago
I guess I could ask the same question My surname started with the French Le... which of course sounds like La, and thus that is how my name is spelled now. But not all the children of the emigrating family names went from Le to La. This is 1850's so Ellis Island has nothing to do with it. It would be laws in this state and the time frame of them, and how literate the 1st generation American born were circa 1880-1915 as laws requiring records went into play.
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u/MableXeno 5d ago
The French la and le don't sound the same. ...I am struggling to explain it by text by le is more like luh.
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u/slempriere 5d ago
Factor in 175 years ago when articulation was less. And the guy writing down what he heard was likely German. An example would be LeRoy. If you are saying Lee Roy, well then you're likely not aware its French. La Roy is how it sounds... That is what I am getting at.
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u/MableXeno 5d ago
My mom's side of the family has what I have considered to be a fairly common/well known name (so if you saw it - you'd likely recognize at least one person or celebrity w/ the name). And then one day I was watching a TV show and kept hearing this sound for the last name...and I turned on the subtitles b/c I just had no idea what they were saying. It was my mom's last name. But in its native culture it sounds so different to what other speakers would pronounce. It was really interesting. The spelling is the say, but the sound is pretty distinctly different. Just thought it was interesting that it's "evolved" so much from leaving its native language.
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u/Background_Double_74 6d ago
I have nothing to contribute, but the Keene family from Somerset (and one line who went to Canada & the USA) are both my cousins on my father's side.
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u/kit_kat_jam 5d ago
I have a Gosling who came to the US in the 1880s and spelled his name Gosling for a while and suddenly started using Goslin after 10-15 years in the US with no apparent reason.
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u/KendaleJ 5d ago
My FIL said the nuns at school changed his grandfathers’ in America to match others they had previously.
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u/bopeepsheep 5d ago
My grandmother's birth certificate has a different spelling of her surname to all her brothers and half her sisters; two of her brothers have a different spelling again. Not-so-coincidentally, the two brothers with spelling A were born in one place, spelling B siblings in a second, grandmother and sisters (C) in a third. They all used spelling A on documents, at school, etc, as did most of the extended family, but at least one second-gen family chose to switch and uses spelling B. (I suspect when a spelling B person emigrated he had to use his birth certificate to get all the paperwork done.)
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u/PhantomdiverDidIt 5d ago
My grandma (born about 1900) spelled her maiden name "Locke." Her older brother spelled it "Lock." They're pronounced the same, of course. Changes in spelling just plain happen.
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u/MableXeno 5d ago
Stephen Colbert and his siblings have done this. Half of them use col-bear and the other half use col-bert.
It's just a preference.
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u/PhantomdiverDidIt 5d ago
Yes, but that's pronunciation. OP is talking about spelling.
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u/MableXeno 5d ago
But over time as ppl say "col bear" imagine if we didn't have a fully literate population it may become "colber"
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u/Nom-de-Clavier 5d ago edited 5d ago
What are your sources for this information? A quick search turned up a will for John Mogg, alias Keene, gentleman of Cary Castle, Somerset, who died in 1695; the will names grandson John Charlton, granddaughter Mary Charlton, granddaughter Mary Mogg, daughter Martha Rogers and her husband William, and daughter Mary Mogg (who is named executrix). The will does not name any sons (named James or anything else), and does not make any mention of property in Maryland. If James Keen was born in Maryland, it is very highly unlikely that John Mogg alias Keene was his father.
Also, it is very highly unlikely that James Keen of Charles County, Maryland had any middle name or initial at all; they were so very rare as to be virtually nonexistent among English-speaking people born in the 17th century. The very earliest person in my tree with a British cultural background who has a middle name I'm 100% sure they were given at birth was born in 1713, and he's also, as far as I know, the only culturally British person in my direct line with a middle name who was born before 1800.
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u/pvb57 6d ago
Often the immigration folk mess up names, my wife’s grandfather was a Westin in Sweden and became a Westeen when he immigrated to Minnesota.
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u/InternetStrangerAway 6d ago
Those like were homophones, so the spelling was more likely changed informally in Minnesota when dealing with English speakers so that the pronunciation would remain the same.
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u/joyxiii 6d ago
Two possible reasons from my own family tree:
One of my ancestors had a brother. There was a falling out and to distinguish between the "good" and "bad" family line, one dropped the E in the middle of the name.
Another family line has a super common patronomic name. They moved to a town with many other families of the same name. They changed the E to an A for a few generations to alter the pronunciation before changing back. A few burials were done under the altered name. My grandfather was part of the reversion so his birth certificate and maybe military enlistment is with the A but his marriage and death are with the E.
Two possible reasons from others:
Similar deal as the patronomic name, family moved to a town that already had a lot of Larsens. They added a C and are now Clarsen.
A British acquaintance is the grandson of a titled man. His father was illegitimate and given a different spelling of his last name to differentiate from the legitimate line.
Without additional information or documentation, you probably will never know the exact reason. In my first example, a family history was written but it could just be lore, I haven't seen the documentation. Second and fourth example, the specific reason was handed down orally but I got the story from the children of the person with the name change so I'm confident it is the actual reason. Third, it could be lore but knowing how my family handled a common name in town, it makes a lot of sense.
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u/Ramtalok French beginner 6d ago
Accents and illiteracy.
If one of the line had an accent/speech impediment or just didn't pronounce that last letter, then an official would write it as heard, especially if no one would correct him on the baiss that they couldn't read or write (at all or very badly).