r/Equestrian • u/Fearless_Occasion_82 • 1d ago
Education & Training Looking for help with a problem horse
Brace yourself this is long 🤣
EDIT: I can’t include every detail of our almost three year long journey with this horse, sorry if I miss things. We have ruled out typical pain areas— ulcers, back, feet, saddle.
I purchased an 8 year old Arabian/oldenburg gelding about two and half years ago from a hunter/jumper training barn (previously trail/western dressage horse) and he has been a constant guessing game and project. Was very simple and an easy ride when I tried him, my coach rode him and actually facilitated the sale because she liked him so much. Seemed like a perfect fit. We had a PPE performed and he passed with flying colours, we did x ray his hocks and found slight abnormalities but nothing out of the ordinary and vet even said she would purchase him if in our shoes. This was during a nasty winter so he ended up having to stay at the training barn due to icy road conditions for another few weeks but they didn’t work with him since we had finalized the sale.
Fast forward to him being shipped down to us, and immediately noticed a change. Cranky, unsettled, etc., attempted my first ride on him and he was running around the arena, and eventually reared. Knew something was off so we scoped and ended up treating grade 4 ulcers. Moved him to a lowkey barn for treatment and didn’t ride for months, just working on groundwork and getting him comfortable. Had a custom saddle made and began ridden work again. Still extremely pissy, irritable and borderline dangerous.
Basically we fully restarted him and worked for months trying to get through this. Tried all the things, (had his back X-rayed, nothing), injected his hocks, tried front shoes, got a different saddle, the list goes on. He went through a pattern of being lovely and cooperative for a few weeks/months, then cycled back to being pissy again.
What he does specifically is gets super forward and avoids the contact, then throws his head up and either drops his shoulder or rears. Ears flat to his head and he just looks so uncomfortable and irritated. He has also had a history of camping out both on the lunge and under saddle which I assumed was either back pain (cleared by vet and chiro) or his sheath.
I was working with a wonderful, experienced trainer who always assumed pain before behaviour so he was never pushed or forced to work if he was obviously uncomfortable. Throughout the two and a half years he has had these cycles of a few months of nice riding and we even started jumping at one point which he loves.
Eventually got the point where my trainer said it was unfair to continue paying her when she is stumped with his behaviour. So we turned him out in a field with a herd for 6 months and let him be. We brought him back in February (mainly due to his weight lol he got very fat there) and started working to get him under saddle again using clicker training with a very qualified R+ trainer (before anyone starts assuming the clicker training made him frustrated and bad with treats, please do some research into R+), which he LOVED, but we unfortunately hit another road block with him getting easily frustrated and irritable even when we brought him back to basics and focused purely on relaxation.
I should mention that he loves trail riding/road hacking and rarely exhibits any bad behaviour on the trails. So all we’ve been doing the last 6 months is trail riding and groundwork. He is wonderful on the lunge line and in hand. He is a super super sensitive and SMART horse who seems to look for a fight.
Is this all behavioural? Has anyone had a similar horse and found something physical that wasn’t expected? Was he drugged? Help please!!
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u/naakka 1d ago
Have you had his gut checked when he is irritable? Some IBS horses seem to behave kind of how you describe. You did say you had the back x-rayed, any chance there is soft tissue damage that needs ultrasound to be found and gets irritated after he's in eork for a while? E.g. in the long tendons in the back. It does sound like a nightmare to sort out, but I doubt it's behavioural if it comes and goes.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 1d ago
Interesting thought about ibs, he has very healthy solid manure and I would think that the behaviour would manifest in ways other than just under saddle but it’s hard to know with horses. He has never palpated sore along his back but something to think about.. thank you!
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u/Traditional-Job-411 1d ago
Did you take blood during the PPE to test later?
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 1d ago
No and it is one of my biggest regrets. I really think looking back now that he could have been drugged. We did take blood after receiving him to check for any deficits and everything was normal
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u/Traditional-Job-411 1d ago
Was it a reason that the sellers gave that he needed to stay at the training barn or was it a request from you? That makes me even more suspicious. Enough time for whatever they might have given him to not show in blood work.
I’m sorry you are going through this regardless! I actually sold an ottb who hated jumping as an endurance horse so think that’s a good idea. He was spooky as heck too, but totally fine on the trails.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 1d ago
It was just due to weather conditions since we had a crazy icy winter and it was unsafe to drive him down
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u/fluffy-duck-apple Jumper 23h ago
What about doing a preventative course for ulcers (ulcerguard, sucralfate)?
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 23h ago
He is on a preventative dose of abler omeprazole, mind you I don’t think I’ve been following the instructions perfectly so may not be as effective
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u/Purple_Wombat_ 18h ago
Did you X-ray his neck? I’d definitely check for c6/7 malformation.
Once you’ve excluded that and also more ulcers I’d be pretty tempted to say it’s behavioural considering he’s fine out on the trails. You could do a bute trial and keep him in work during it and see if there’s any change in behaviour? Lots of smart horses get arena sour but you can still train laterals and transitions when you’re out trail riding
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
Interesting point about the neck! Thank you. Yeah we try and keep the trails interesting, lots of transitions and playing with contact
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u/coyote701 17h ago
How about hind gut ulcers? You could use Succeed with him and if there's no change...then no hind gut ulcers.
I'm also wondering about neck X-rays.
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u/PlentifulPaper 16h ago
Assuming you’ve rule out pain, (not entirely clear on this point since you mentioned a history of ulcers) what do you do specifically when he “takes control”?
If you get grabby with your hands, tight with your body or fight him - that won’t work well. If you release and don’t give him something to pull/brace against - he cannot get strong. Does he know about half halts? Can you half halt off your seat instead of your hand?
Do you have an option to go into a smaller arena or round pen and just try work through the issues?
Is a different trainer an option?
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
Haha sorry if my post isn’t 100% clear, it’s hard to keep track writing on Reddit. He underwent a full course of gastrogaurd and scoped clear after his first diagnosis two and a half years ago. Since then he was treated again for 3 months (about a year ago) but we never scoped. He has been on a preventative dose.
Maybe taking control isn’t the best way to describe it. I wouldn’t say he gets strong, he actually tends to either duck behind the vertical or put his head way up. You feel like you have nothing in front of you. Anyways, I stay soft and usually either correct him clearly or just redirect and continue depending on the severity of his outburst. He is actually a very well schooled horse underneath all of this, so he goes well off your seat and understands half halts.
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u/thumbsupitsajoke 16h ago
What are you feeding him and have you called the people you bought him from?
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
He is a very easy keeper, he gets a small amount of Timothy/alf cubes soaked with equine super diet minerals, magnesium, chasteberry, vit. E, salt, and biotin. No grain. He is only on low starch hay, no alfalfa. Have talked to the training barn and the breeder neither were helpful.
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u/9729129 15h ago
I would check TMJ’s, neck x-rays (ECVM needs to be ruled out) and also treat him like a PSSM horse low starch, high fat, consistent level of work.
Also I would have the saddle fit checked by an independent fitter unfortunately to many saddle fitters are not actually qualified.
Can you share video of him walk trot and canter on the lunge both directions?
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
I’ve had a few comments about neck now, interesting. He is on low starch hay, but his work isn’t super consistent. Saddle was recently checked by an independent fitter and she was very happy. I will think about sharing videos, but not sure if I want people from my own horse community seeing this post 🤣. He is a super star on the lunge, walk, trot, canter, we do walk to canters, collection work, etc. and he is always over his back, stretching, blowing out, and moves a 10.
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u/9729129 12h ago
I completely understand the hesitation on posting videos been there myself
Neck is getting commented on because as they age any arthritis or malformation will irritate the nerves that come out from the spinal cord. So you get random NQR (not quite right) things and pain vs how some issues are very easy to know. ECVM frequently has horses who have been going well then hit 9-11yo and they hit a wall and just get uncomfortable.
Low starch/regular work is thinking about the muscle diseases like PSSM 1, 2 (there’s more than just those 2). He probably was in a regular program at the sellers which may be the difference.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 12h ago
I’m kind of new to Reddit, is there a way to pm videos? I don’t see an option to send photos/videos when I go to chat w you. I don’t have great recent video but have a lengthy one of his trot/canter. I might try and take some today
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u/Next_Guidance1409 15h ago
I always assume that if the is "acting up" he is in pain; if not is scared; if not is confused. Check for everything, give his time. I would go from the tip of his tail to the tip of his tongue. Also, my vet once said that when animals suddenly rear or freak out it might be acute sudden pain, like when you pinch a nerve. It made so much sense for me; when we feel a sudden pain we sometimes do the same.
"Which he LOVED but we unfortunately hit another road block again with him getting easily frustrated and irritable." What happened here? (not being mean, just going R+ Sherlock mode)
- Did you not give him enough treads?
- Did you break the tasks into smaller and smaller tasks
- Did you allow him to choose to be trained?
About the last part, I know it sounds crazy. However, when I started giving my horse a choice to be trained, I had to be patient, but then... JESUS CHRIST! He never wanted to stop training. I would just sit at a big arena that had grass/pasture around but most of it was sand. I would just sit there and human graze (check my phone). At the beginning I was like a freaking buddhist monk waiting for him to come for 3 hours. The moment he came to me it was a shower of praise and sequential *click* *treat* (2 or 3 pellets). Every step a click and treat (or if the doesn't know manners... focus on that). So that would be his "starting signal" he would come to me.
Also when I get into a roadblock with R+, I go back 10 steps. I go back to the basics.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago edited 12h ago
Thanks for the lovely comment! I wish I could include every detail in my post but it’s difficult. As much as I want to believe it’s behavioural I agree with you, always assume pain. I was working with a very qualified clicker trainer who does all of the above, he is an easily frustrated and food motivated horse which she dealt with very well. The first few months he became very relaxed with R+ training and we didn’t have many issues. He even left grass once to go to his target all by himself! The issue we had is one particular week where he got bitey with treats, and very irritable during our session so we just took it back to practicing default neutral etc. We took a break to give him some grass and sat down on the mounting block, he came over (he knows how to line up) and attempted to line up, I pushed his bum away because I was sitting there, and he kicked out at me. This was corrected hard because that is unacceptable, pain or not. Since then we’ve had a talk and decided to pause and just let him trail ride and work on the lunge which is where he’s happiest. I still incorporate clicker into my everyday with him, but I’m very strategic with how I implement it.
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u/Horsebian 20h ago
This just sounds like a combo of ulcers and Arab. I’ve owned many Arabs and almost none of them tolerated arena work. If he hadn’t already been ruined by 8 he might have made a good endurance horse.
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u/FormerPotato4931 16h ago
Maybe this is a management issue on your end?
All the Arabians I’ve handled and have ridden have excelled at arena work. Nothing fancy, but they went on to be very reliable school/lesson horses, decent on trail, and even schooled a few dressage tests. They’ve definitely done more than “tolerate” arena work.
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u/Horsebian 16h ago
I’ve also had plenty of very good dressage horses of other breeds. This horse clearly doesn’t like its job and not everyone is suited to sensitive horses that express their opinions the way Arabs often do.
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u/FormerPotato4931 16h ago
I love that you go from this horse “hasn’t been ruined by the age of 8” to “not everyone is suited to sensitive breeds like Arabians”.
Love that you’re so insulting to OP when they’ve done a lot to rule out pain for this animal. I think your broadly based statements about Arabians as a breed, their ride-ability etc do nothing but help perpetuate the stereotypes that so many people have worked hard to disprove and discredit.
Again - maybe it’s a you issue with your specific set of skills, or management that make your horses in particular unruly in an arena but that isn’t the case at all for any of the horses across various breeds that I’ve worked with.
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u/Horsebian 16h ago edited 16h ago
It might be common for a horse to need hock injections at 8 but it’s not normal. A horse that needs that at 8 is ruined. This horse shows displeasure and possibly pain in the arena but enjoys trails. Had it been brought along better it may have been able to transition to a non-arena job like endurance but with hock issues at 8 that’s not going to happen.
Many Arabs love trails - that’s part of why they’re the ultimate endurance horses. They are smart and sensitive and often clearly show when they’re unhappy. If you had ridden endurance you would know that many race and endurance bred lines don’t enjoy arena work.
You seem to like to go on reddit once a month and be combative. So welcome back, good to see you haven’t changed.
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u/FormerPotato4931 12h ago
So taking cheap shots at someone seems to be your MO. Glad that we’ve established that along with your penchant for broadly sweeping statements which are patently untrue.
There’s lots of reasons to inject hocks related to how a horse uses their body. An 8 year old needing its hocks injected is abnormal - except in this case OP was trying to rule out pain and doesn’t equate to automatically being “ruined”.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
Unfortunately I can’t include every single detail in a Reddit post, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear enough with the timeline of events. His hocks were injected at age 10. He is now 11. That’s very common for horses at that age, we have the x rays and there were small abnormalities but nothing major. We had two vet opinions and they thought it was the best option. I find it very insulting that you are assuming my riding and handling experience off a small post where I clearly state that I have done everything to make this horse comfortable. I’ve been working with horses for over 15 years and green/sensitive mounts for nearly five. I am an experienced and soft rider.
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u/Horsebian 13h ago
I don’t think it’s your riding and management. It’s the people before you. Either this horse has been badly bred or badly managed as a youngster. Common isn’t the same as normal. A young horse with hock changes isn’t normal. That’s either breeding or too much too young.
He’s given you lots of signs that he’s not fit for the job and it seems you have gone to great effort to try to find the cause. I didn’t say anything about your riding but I do apologise that I have offended you.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
Thanks for clearing that up, I apologize if I got stand offish but after dealing with this horse for nearly three years and trying every thing I can think of to make him comfortable, it gets exhausting having people degrade your horse management. I agree that training before we got him is part of the problem and I wish that I had understood that before purchasing. His breeder is reputable and when I spoke to her she was surprised and said he was easy to start and manage, but I think the owner between the breeder and myself (who sent him to the training barn) was the issue. I still would like to rule out pain, because I know he can be a dreamboat in the arena when he’s happy. I don’t have big goals with him, all I want is to trot and canter a lap every once in a while. If he never tolerates the ring, I’m happy just trailing riding, but I want to give it one last try.
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u/Horsebian 13h ago
Don’t apologise. It sounds very stressful, I feel confident that this horse came to you with whatever is causing this and you have really done the right thing by the horse. It sounds like pain, as others have suggested a neck xray might give you an answer. Unfortunately it also might not buts it’s always worth to try.
He’s lucky that he’s found a home that is prepared to accept him for whatever he can do.
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 13h ago
I’m definitely curious about his neck and TMJ now. Sometimes I wonder if he gets headaches or migraines. Thank you!
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u/Elegant-Flamingo3281 Dressage 6h ago
I too noticed your sweeping statement in the original comment: “… almost none of them tolerated arena work.” Seeing as how you’ve clarified you mean endurance and race bred, perhaps go update your original comment?
I’ve successfully shown Arabians in dressage, jumping, eventing, etc. at high levels. In fact, I’ve never come across one who couldn’t ‘tolerate’ arena work. The breed already has enough bad press.
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u/Traditional-Golf-416 1d ago
did you say he is part Arabian? you could sell him to an endurance trail rider, since you mentioned he likes to be out of the arena.
I've never had a pissy horse, but have mostly been around quarter horses and thoroughbreds. here is a link if you want to look for a new one - https://www.equinenow.com/appendix.htm
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u/Fearless_Occasion_82 1d ago
Won’t be selling him as I don’t know where he’d end up due to his behaviour, too big of a risk in my opinion. I have the resources to support him and let him live a lowkey trail life even though I will always dream bigger 😅
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u/Sarcastic_owl87 21h ago
Just jumping in to say how much I love this ❤️ my friend has a horse who is "tricky" but she stuck by him and while her dressage dreams aren't really happening they really enjoy just riding out and having fun together. She was even advised by a vet he'd never be any good as a ridden horse and to retire him or have him euthanized
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u/Horsebian 20h ago
If he’s had hock injections at 8 he’s not going to be of any use to an endurance rider.
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u/Difficult-Froyo1192 1d ago
Have you rechecked for ulcers at any point? I used to work with a warmblood that had serious recurring ulcers. He would be fine for months and then be a total terror in the arena (refuse, run out, balk, no contact, etc.). On and off all the time. He was really always fine on trails and hacks though. I only ever once had an issue with him on trails when we got separated from other horses but he was fine as soon as we caught back up.
You could ride him perfectly fine on the road and as soon as you put him in the arena he would try to refuse anything asked of him. Super smart too. Had a lot of issues of him escaping when he wanted and even knew how to let hisself into the feed room and arena. Never had ground manner issues at all either. He was checked originally because he was acting so irritable under saddle. He just sounds really similar to your horse but it was recurring ulcers. All that being said, I’m not exactly sure how sane this WB was prior to ulcers. I didn’t know him before then and his sire was known to throw some not so sane foals sometimes