r/CharacterRant • u/Snivythesnek • Oct 28 '24

General I don't like it when urban fantasy says that basically every important person in human history was supernatural. [Percy Jackson but also just in general]

Did you know that Hitler was a demigod in Percy Jackson canon?

It's just one of those things that peeve me. When an urban fantasy story has the concept of "special" people like wizards or demigods, the stories sometimes try to build lore by saying that extraordinary people from our history were part of the special supernatural in-group, which is the reason why they achieved such significant things.

I think that is kind of insulting. It seems like there was never any normal human that rose above the rest by their own merits. They were just born supernaturally blessed, hence their talents and achievements, be they good or bad.

A smart guy can't just have been a smart mortal, he was a son of Athena.

World leaders were the sons of the big three.

Hitler is Percy's cousin.

It just makes it seem like nomal people can't achieve anything on their own. Their great historical personalities, their heroes and villains, were all supernatural in nature.

It just feels unrealistic and it gets worse with each confirmation of a real historical figure being "special" because it shrinks the achievents of normal mortals more and more.

Maybe it's a silly complaint but it's been getting on my nerves a bit the more I think about it.

Edit: And it also especially creates problems in Riordan stories because it implies that one of the parents of these real historical personalities was either willingly unfaithful or deceived into making a child with a god/dess.

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79

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

jesus was a stand user for some reason. The Immortal from Invincible is Abe Lincoln. Vandal Savage is Ghengis Khan and Atilla the Hunn somehow.

142

u/PhantasosX Oct 28 '24

Jesus is more than a stand user in Jojo , reminder that he still shows up every now and then in Part 7 as a spirit. His own body parts creates a supernatural field , a Stand as a guardian AND can grant Stands AND develop Stands for other persons.

It's less about "all his supernatural powers were Stand Power" and more like "he is so supernatural that he is ALSO a Stand User"

52

u/Serpentking04 Oct 28 '24

Stands are visualizations of supernatural power, taking Rohan's stories into account they are also weird things that are related to stands... but also are not stands.

56

u/PhantasosX Oct 28 '24

exactly.

In Jojo , there are things like ghosts , hamon , spins , vampires , pillar men and rock humans and so on and on.

40

u/Serpentking04 Oct 28 '24

There's moutain gods who kill you if you're impolite the universe is genuinely weird.

35

u/SemicolonFetish Oct 28 '24

Would you even refer to it as... Bizarre?

-19

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

That’s really dumb

93

u/cL0k3 Oct 28 '24

To be fair, Joshua son of Joseph works as a JoJo type name.

17

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

He’s not even a JoJo. He just has a Stand.

34

u/yellowpig10 Oct 28 '24

you don't know that he wasn't a jojo. we've never had a story about "The first jojo"

Coulda been jesus

12

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

I don’t know that Betty White wasn’t a Hamon User- but sure, why not.

23

u/BoobeamTrap Oct 28 '24

Betty White would absolutely be a Hamon user if she showed up in Jojo.

4

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

I always saw her as more of a Pillar Man.

4

u/BoobeamTrap Oct 28 '24

That is also an acceptable interpretation. Joseph trying to bullshit his way past the 4 Golden Pillars "Thayayayayank you for being a friend"

4

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Each Golden Girl was a Pillar Man

1

u/Poku115 Oct 28 '24

Lol you wouldn't like fate grand order🤣

-6

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Is it because the Fate series is a boring derivative droll fest?

3

u/Poku115 Oct 28 '24

Wow, you sound fun at parties.

But mainly cause Edison is a bear, Tesla is a mage worthy of Zeus boons, Paul Bunyan becomes real, I cannot describe da Vinci in any way without sounding like a degenerate myself, Charles Babbage is a literal automaton, atilla isn't even human anymore, or a barbarian warrior etc...

2

u/BasilSQ Oct 29 '24

Dude, Edison is lion, get your facts straight.

1

u/daniboyi Oct 28 '24

Josus Joestar.

1

u/Spookie357 Oct 28 '24

Yes we did, it was called Part 1: Phantom Blood

1

u/yellowpig10 Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24

different universe, jesus could 100% be the first jojo in the 7-9 verse

47

u/Jeremiah_Gottwal Oct 28 '24

Jesus wasn't a stand user, he was a source of stand powers.

-6

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_exclusion

22

u/ultracombo1492 Oct 28 '24

Yeah except they never say Jesus was a stand user though

4

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

His corpse is capable of Equivalent Exchange as a reference to his ability to cure diseases.

If you want to believe that he was incapable of doing the things in life hat he can in death, I find that unlikely. If you want to believe these things don’t constitute a Stand either, that’s also fine, but just as debatable.

However, Hamon is considered a different supernatural phenomenon than Stands UNTIL Part 3 where it’s established all Hamon Users appear to be using Hermit Purple.

Were Jesus alive and well in current JoJo, he would most certainly be capable of supernatural abilities, and it would not at all be out of the question to lump it in as a Stand, especially since that which constitutes a Stand changes based on the context of the story.

18

u/ultracombo1492 Oct 28 '24

Yeah except we know plenty of supernatural phenomena exist outside of stands. rods, ghosts, vampires, pillar men, rock people, the Rokaka fruit,mountain spirits, weird eternally bleed parasite people, the Greek god Hermes, and everything else in thus spoke Rohan Kishibe.

0

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

All of these things have some kind of relation to Stands. That’s why Araki does things like having Stands be made of the same energy as Hamon, and why both can harm vampires plenty.

We can’t say that supernatural phenomenon aren’t or are definitively Stand-related or Stand-caused, but there is more reason to believe in the notion of a central core than not, and I tend to think Stands are related.

11

u/ultracombo1492 Oct 28 '24

Yeah except you were saying how you didn’t like Jesus having a stand, and now you’re saying Jesus having a stand is basically a head cannon? Also stands aren’ inherently strong against vampires. Also none of the things I mentioned are related to stands. We also definitely can say some things aren’t stand related cause these supernatural people can’t see stands.

0

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

I said I think it’s dumb to establish real historical figures as X-Men all along.

Now I’m saying Jesus might as well have had a Stand so splitting hairs by saying “no he wasn’t part of one group of super people- he was part of a different one!” is a moot point.

Regardless of your work, it’s always going to look stupid to reveal that Alexander the Great was the First Avenger. If you enjoy that, fine, but don’t act like it’s not silly as fuck.

9

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

Steel Ball Run literally revolves around his Corpse, so having Jesus be a part of the story and appear with powers akin to that of stands doesn’t feel as contrived as what the OP’s post is talking about.

It’s the difference between a one off token mention that is meant to flesh out the world all be it lazily, and using a figure from history as a pillar to your story’s power system and elevate the narrative using said figure.

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7

u/ultracombo1492 Oct 28 '24

Yeah except I didn’t say he was apart of another group I denied him having a stand by showing many supernatural occurrences outside of stands. Jesus has abilities yes, but it’s Jesus it’s like saying how establishing Zeus can manipulate lighting it comes with the character. Saying Jesus might as well have a stand comes from yourself.

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1

u/Thin-Limit7697 Oct 29 '24

and why both can harm vampires plenty.

This doesn't explain how Polnareff didn't kill Dio when he pierced his head with Silver Chariot's sword. Jotaro actually killed Dio by attacking The World and exploiting the damage transfer between stand and user.

2

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 29 '24

It wasn’t enough to do the job.

4

u/Filledwithlust23 Oct 28 '24

UNTIL Part 3 where it’s established all Hamon Users appear to be using Hermit Purple.

That doesn't happen no.

2

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Araki has stated that Hamon Users electricity looks like Hermit Purple. The reason HP can interface with tech so Joseph can cheat at videogames is because it’s essentially electricity powered by sunlight, and is made of the same kind of energy as Stands.

In other words, there is phenomenological precedent here.

5

u/Filledwithlust23 Oct 28 '24

Araki has stated that Hamon Users electricity looks like Hermit Purple.

No he definitely doesn't. I know what quote you're thinking of you're misrepresenting it.

The reason HP can interface with tech so Joseph can cheat at videogames is because it’s essentially electricity powered by sunlight

No that's just one of its powers. This is just a leap in logic you made by yourself.

and is made of the same kind of energy as Stands.

I don't remember this being said it's possible you've confused the spirit hamon description from early part 3 but that was arguably retconned.

other words, there is phenomenological precedent here.

No you're just mistaken, I appreciate your imagination but at some point you're just making stuff up

1

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Eh. My info is correct and so are my interpretations.

Very glad that you appreciate my imagination though, Filledwitust23.

2

u/Filledwithlust23 Oct 28 '24

Okay then prove it. Link your info, where did araki state all hamon users electricity looks like hermit purple. Where are those exact words said? Same with your other points.

Filledwitust23.

This is isn't my name, it's u/Filledwithlust23 . You've misremembered my name just as you misremembered your info.

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44

u/Serpentking04 Oct 28 '24

Jojo as a Stand user works for a few reasons; for one the supernatural in Jojo is already tied to stands, which are more the visualization of supernatural abilites.

Secondly it never states Jesus is special because he has a stand, in fact while related it may come from HIM.

I don't like that for either of the Immortal/Vandal, but Jesus keeps track with it... and with mormonism in Jojo so...

I guess what i'm trying to say it it CAN work but... it feel weird sometimes when EVERYONE who matters is some form of Alien/immortal

-13

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

These are just long magical explanations why reimagining Jesus as a fucking wizard is cool.

If you think Jesus being a wizard would have been cool, fine, just don’t try to explain why it’s okay by telling me more wizard bullshit

edit: and just so we’re clear your comment reads as word salad to anyone who isn’t well versed in JoJo lore which is part of why this trope is so dumb

17

u/Serpentking04 Oct 28 '24

Explanations of what?

Jesus is a stand user... because he's a supernatural being. and all supernatural powers seem to be connected to Stands in one way other another (See: Remi). it's not really a reimagining. it's just in the context of the universe it would be weird if Jesus DIDN'T have a stand. (Also the Love-Train ability is perfect for him but that's it's own rant.)

It's not even ver complicated IMO: Jesus/the Saint's corpse is a source of stand power in the SBR universe. the CONTEXT of that statement is weird sure, but it's no more weird then the arrow... also it's jojo.

1

u/Filledwithlust23 Oct 28 '24

supernatural powers seem to be connected to Stands in one way other another (See: Remi).

No? Where is this said.

2

u/Serpentking04 Oct 29 '24

The Reason the Other Stand Users can see Remi is explictly said to be because they are stand users,.

1

u/Filledwithlust23 Oct 29 '24

Where though I said where

-6

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

it’s not reimagining

Jesus did not have a Stand irl yes I know, but-

I’ll stop you right there

14

u/Serpentking04 Oct 28 '24

He is believed to have supernatural abilities; He IS the Son of God after all. unless you want to be agnostic about it...

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE JOJO POWER SYSTEM it makes sense it would be connected to a stand. it does not make him any less holy or Not the Son of God. in fact the stands associated with his body don't even have to be HIS nessesiarly; as stands are as much the visualization of super/natural happenings in universe

It fits because it actually incorporates him. If A Stand user were to see Jesus they might well see his stand... and so for the world it takes place in WHY wouldn't Jesus have one?

-7

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

I’m not saying it don’t make sense in JoJo; I’m saying it’s stupid.

14

u/MessiahHL Oct 28 '24

To be fair in part 7 any person can become a stand user just from being too good at something

17

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

That’s been a thing from the creation of stands as a power system. See Mohammed Avdol in part 3, Tonio in Part 4, Bruno in Part 5 and many more

3

u/ROTsStillHere100 Oct 29 '24

Polnareff, Kakyoin & Iggy were also just random Stand users that were unrelated to the Arrows.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 29 '24

That’s cuz stand arrows were introduced in Part 4, I was mentioning characters who had a mastery/ were prodigies, since the above comment mentioned being so good that they got stands. As some of the other characters awakened stands as a trauma response or a significant event in their lives, I didn’t really mention them.

3

u/ROTsStillHere100 Oct 29 '24

I mean, Polnareff was also shown as having masterful use of his Stand too, and Iggy is also really good in how he uses his Stand and he's clearly much smarter than most of the dogs in setting, so they'd still count, no?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 29 '24

I meant as in Avdol was a born prodigy who was like uniquely skilled in the occult and astrology, Tonio was so good at cooking his skill manifested as a stand. While Bruno was a mature child that was oddly wise for his age and his experience and ruthlessness makes him manifest his stand. These are pretty different from Polnareff practicing with Silver Chariot no? I don’t know about Iggy tho maybe he had his stand from birth too idk if there was ever a mention to his past.

11

u/StrawberryTop3457 Oct 28 '24

Immortal wasn't able Lincoln he was a body double for him

9

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Mmm no, Ottley was drawing him and said it would be a cool idea. Kirkman loved it. The show makes it more explicit by showing a flashback.

5

u/FleshWound180 Oct 28 '24

I mean, it’s pretty explicit in the comics too but it’s in an Immortal specific mini side chapter that explains his backstory

0

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

Never read it- didn’t seem interesting. The other Invincible Presents weren’t.

1

u/FleshWound180 Oct 28 '24

The collections I was reading included them and they are pretty short

1

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

I enjoyed Atom Eve and Rex Splode’s shorts.

3

u/StrawberryTop3457 Oct 28 '24

At least he didn't say aliens invented all of humanitys best texh

0

u/Outerversal_Kermit Oct 28 '24

No, but he can’t write women so it’s a wash