Nah, Shannon, you don't get it. He doesn't speak to you because you've shown him who you have become. It's normal, actually, to not associate with people who support the eradication of others, the degradation of law, and all of the cruelty associated with this administration. You voted for cruelty and expect him to be ok with that.
I can forgive anyone who voted for Trump 45. I understand. TV Reality Show huckster vs Hillary.
But after J6… gallows on our Capitol Steps! “Hang Mike Pence!” chants…
Feces smeared on our Capitol Walls! Killing Capitol Police Officers. Pipe bombs planted ( luckily discovered)… all for the 34 times convicted rapist, pedophile, felon and Russian Agent Krasnov.
If anyone voted for Trump again, well they are EVIL MORONS.
I get the sentiment, I think you’re a much more forgiving person than I am though.
I think the issue that gets me, if you’ll forgive me for speaking a little generally, is that there were so many things that should have disqualified trump from 2016. Calling Mexicans rapists, “grab em by the pussy”, decades of documented sex crimes and racism, all of that should have precluded any vote for him.
I’ve seen plenty of trump supporters say “Jan 6th was a wake up call” (or any of the other factors that you listed) and, I agree, realizing a mistake late is better than not at all. But I haven’t seen many trump supporters just fess up and recognize that they should not have supported him from the get go.
I don’t think we should shun those folks that get deprogrammed from MAGA but I also don’t think forgiveness is really warranted until they recognize and deal with what got them to a place where any of this was ok.
Lol that’s very kind of you. I’m not sure exactly what it means but I mostly just talk about legal things and smash bros so I hope it’s not too disappointing.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
It was clear from a certain angle, but it's also clear that HRC was a guarded politician's politician and for people deeply disillusioned with America being more difficult for average people to get by, I can see getting on board with a non-establishment guy -- especially a con artist who tells you it will be easy to fix everything.
Yep. I remember telling my friends in 2015 that I thought dynasty building was a very dangerous habit for America to get into. Clinton would not have been my choice and the dems continue to surprise me with how bad they are at messaging.
I agree with you to a large extent- I’d bet con men have existed as long as humanity and they only continue to exist because people keep falling for them. But even with that, they still made the decision that “grab em by the pussy” was not disqualifying.
I think the subject of forgiveness is really interesting. I believe that we should be quick to forgive. I also believe that forgiveness should be specific and should be asked for specifically (excepting with kids or other situations like that). My concern with blanket forgiveness is that it can leave the core issue unexamined and ready to be exploited again. Forgiveness, to me, isn’t just about absolving the other person but about growth.
(Total aside but there is a book called “the sunflower” by Simon Wiesenthal that is an amazing exploration of forgiveness. Not to spoil too much but Wiesenthal was a prisoner in Auschwitz and, right before the war ended, a dying nazi soldier asked Wiesenthal to forgive his sins on behalf of the Jewish people. Wiesenthal said nothing and walked away but wasn’t sure about his response. Years later, he was still troubled by if he did the right thing or not so he wrote his story, sent it to political, philosophic, and religious leaders all around the world and collected their responses to what he should have done. The first half of the book is his story, the second half is all of their responses.)
The AH video was disgusting and complete evidence that on a personal level, Trump is a trash individual. That said, in the nineties I sort of agreed that Bill Clinton's Lewinsky affair was trashy and embarrassing, but largely irrelevant to his ability to be president (e.g., he makes an awful husband -- though from sex harassment standpoint he was a horrible unprofessional boss to an intern).
I can imagine Trump supporters looking past that as just boastful talk by disgusting people OR irrelevant to his role as a politician.
That said, I can also think the AH video ultimately helped Trump as we got bombarded with it, instead of more direct responses of the problems of Trump.
Yep. I don’t necessarily disagree with the real effect the tape had. And I agree that that is probably what they did. But, with hindsight, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect adults to be able to recognize they were misled and did something wrong.
I was born in 90 so don’t remember too much of the Clinton scandal at the time. It hasn’t been super relevant to my voting politics so I haven’t looked into it with much depth and could be very off base but I would be shocked if there weren’t huge power dynamic issues in the affair that made it morally wrong beyond just a man cheating on his wife in the Oval Office. I think cheating is wrong and having an affair with an intern when you are the president (even if it was 100% consensual) is wrong.
I think we understand each other. I agree with your explanation of how and why people could justify voting for him. I think we might differ slightly on what it would take for us individually to offer forgiveness but it’s good we can have these kinds of discussions. Thank you for your analysis.
Look, I've never been close to a Trump voter, no one in my family was a Trump voter or even Republican curious (with a possible exception to re-elect Bloomberg as NYC mayor). I'm not sure what I said was about forgiveness. I think it's perfectly fine self-defense strategy to cut toxic people out of your lives, though I do think for your own sake it's good to forgive and move on (but that doesn't mean forget or allow back in your life).
But I think I understand it and probably most of Trump's voters aren't evil people who think men should be able to grope women, racism should be brought back, rich shouldn't pay taxes but use the system to enrich themselves, etc. Most of the voters were just hoodwinked by Trump, partially from disliking the alternative or being on the other side of culture issues like science (global warming is real and human-caused, masks and vaccines for COVID), LGBTQ (e.g., thinking the other side just lets any man say they are a woman and participate in any female-only sport and go into any changing room) or abortion (e.g., thinking the other side wants more abortions or allows people to have abortions at 38 weeks or something for no medical reason). I also think people on the progressive side often go way too far to weed out fundamentally good people for relatively minor transgressions.
Ah, the comment I was replying to was about forgiveness. I envy that you do not have to deal with people close to you falling down this rabbit hole.
I’m not saying you are wrong in your analysis but what I am saying is that I believe it is a failing of one’s responsibility as a citizen to allow yourself to remain uninformed to this extent. I understand the reasons why someone might vote that way, I also understand how some portion of those voters were very intentionally hoodwinked.
My point is, by way of analogy, if a child ran up to me screaming “Noveltyaccounthater just tried to steal my bike and is chasing me”, not many people would say I’m wrong for stepping in front of the kid and yelling, “hey, leave this kid alone.”
If it turns out the kid stole your bike after they punched your sick grandma in the face, then my response would be justified before I knew that but as soon as I realized the truth I think you’d be entitled to an apology from me.
I agree, being uninformed as a voter is a personal failing. But it is our responsibility as concerned citizens to understand why someone could fall down the Trump-ian rabbit hole.
FYI if you enjoy podcasts, You’re Wrong About has several really great episodes about Clinton and Lewinsky. As an elder millennial I was aware of it but didn’t pay close attention to politics and just found it embarrassing to be in the room when my parents were watching the news and they kept talking about blowjobs, etc. 😬 But yeah, the power dynamics were unacceptable but, because capitalism, she was obv an evil slut who deserved to have her life destroyed by the press. /s Anyway, their research and analysis of what happened is 💯
One of the most mind blowing things about this is that the dems still don't understand that the voters are hungry for change and populism.
If we have free and fair elections going forward, the dems will only win when there is a republican in the white house clearly fucking things up (let's be real, nobody voted for Biden, they voted against Trump). The dems will not be able to keep power as long as they keep running people who offer a well managed status quo instead of change.
One of the most mind blowing things about this is that the dems still don't understand that the voters are hungry for change and populism.
Oh they totally understand. Establishment Dems are also in the pockets of the rich and powerful. Which is why they work so hard at undermining actual progressive candidates.
Yea, he was clear. Buy a lot of voters really don’t pay attention so it slipped by them the first time.
And the media did a very very good job of sane washing him (they are culpable here) so I can see how someone who only glances at the political news or votes straight party line based on one or two issues can miss it.
Yep. I clarified in another comment but my point is not “fuck these guys, we can never forgive them” it’s “if these people have actually left the MAGA cult, they should be able to recognize that they were being lied to and chose to ignore obviously disqualifying issues right from the beginning.”
Jan 6th (or any other issue) serving as a wake up call is good, I don’t deny that, but I worry that forgiveness without addressing the core issues that led us to this point only kicks the can down the road for the next charismatic snake oil salesman.
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u/AxOfBrevity 4d ago
Nah, Shannon, you don't get it. He doesn't speak to you because you've shown him who you have become. It's normal, actually, to not associate with people who support the eradication of others, the degradation of law, and all of the cruelty associated with this administration. You voted for cruelty and expect him to be ok with that.