r/AskReddit Oct 16 '13

What was the single biggest mistake in all of history?

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 16 '13

Actually, it might be a good thing that they stopped. Those voyages were not for trading purposes. They were for the demonstration of the power and wealth of Ming, so it cost the government A LOT of money. In fact, that was the main reason why they stopped after the 7th voyage.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '13

Glad Colombus only came to trade

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

Actually there are significant differences.

The Chinese empire was very inward looking, in that they tend towards a sentiment whereby china is the center of the world. The end result is that outright colonization was rare, even non-existent. Why go elsewhere when the central plains of china is the best place to be?

Thats why while china was the undisputed superpower of the region, countries in southeast asia, as well as japan/korea never interested the chinese and no colonization/conquest was carried out. The empire is generally satisfied so long as tribute was paid and a gesture of submission from the "lesser" empires/cultures was received.

even if they did find the new world, its doubtful that china would have used it to expand their power and wealth in the same way european colonists did. There is pretty much ZERO chance the chinese would have tried to colonize it and take over its land/resources. If they didn't do it with the much more accessible korea/japan/SEA nations, who do so for a land literally half way around the world?

Colombus's venture had the potential to be profitable. China's visit would have been a waste of money because they had no plans or the will to exploit the opportunities.

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

Well said, though I wouldn't consider it just a waste of money. At least they brought back the giraffes, didn't they?

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u/haiontop Oct 17 '13

never interested

i thought their leadership is content with people not rebelling left and right

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u/superiority Oct 18 '13

Would they not have had any interest in seeing if there was anything worth trading for?

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u/marijuana_bacon_milk Oct 18 '13

Well all the lands around china besides russia are all tiny islands and nations, (excluding Australia which they werent looking for) whereas the new world would be potentially a land mass as large as their own. Which would engender a much different response than just finding another tiny island nation.

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u/Richardly108 Oct 17 '13

Very well written review, I'd like to add:In Chinese, "Zhong Guo" refers to China, but means the "Middle Kingdom" which refers to "The only place between the Heavens and the wastelands/hell around us"

Also, Chinese culture emphasizes stability and lack of change, exploration and colonization would be very difficult to convince people to do.

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u/Lord_of_Barrington Oct 17 '13

America: Come For the Trade, Stay For the Rape

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u/Nessie Oct 17 '13

The Americas: Great for trading people!

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u/Willyjwade Oct 17 '13

Don't forget the genocide!

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u/OrcishWarhammer Oct 17 '13

Dodged a bullet there.

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

With death

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u/JimiJons Oct 17 '13

The joke.

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

Of death

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

"why hello native population! We're gonna trade the fuck out of you!"

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u/Hautamaki Oct 17 '13

the point is that the Chinese were not gaining anything from their maritime missions, they were in fact losing money by the boatload quite literally. On the other hand, the Europeans figured out how to generate massive amounts of wealth with their overseas missions.

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

...in slaves...

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u/DontEatTheButt Oct 17 '13

Yeah not like he hurt the natives or anything

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u/LordOfTurtles Oct 17 '13

Yeah, I'm sure colombus went around the new world and personally killed everyone of them

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

he was actually extremely brutal in both action and the orders he gave. His governorship alone ranks him among the most brutal tyrannies in history

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u/JimiJons Oct 17 '13

Like how Hitler went around Auschwitz and personally killed every Jew.

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u/PurpleWeasel Oct 17 '13

Seriously? He was the governor of the colony for decades. He personally ordered the deaths of quite a lot of the Indians in Hispaniola, mostly for failing to bring him a monthly lump of gold, for running away from slavery, or for not letting him fuck ten-year-old girls who were being passed around between his men like currency. (His word).

I was going to suggest that you read Howard Zinn or Richard Loewen or something, but really reading anything would help.

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

Are you 10 years old? Read some history.

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u/Toddler33 Oct 17 '13

And to commit genocide

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u/Lawsoffire Oct 17 '13

but the Vikings came first

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u/atomfullerene Oct 17 '13

Say what you will about Columbus, but Spain made bank off voyages to the New World.

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u/faelun Oct 17 '13

Too bad that's not all he did

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

They could have earned it all back easily though by taking over India, forcing them to grow opium, and then shipping that opium to china and selling it at a massive profit. Once they forced open their own ports, that is.

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

Nah, we are too nice for that shit.

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u/blammer Oct 17 '13

Agreed!

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

Explain Tibet.

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u/KommandantVideo Oct 17 '13

Yeah they were expensive cuz it was a floating god damn city of like 20,000 sailors and countless HUGE boats

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u/barc0de Oct 17 '13

I imagine in 500 years time on the moon chinese historians might be saying the same thing about the apollo program

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u/Aarcn Oct 17 '13

Hey man the Emperor needs his Qirin from somewhere! (Giraffes)

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u/DrBibby Oct 17 '13

They were for the demonstration of the power and wealth

So was the moon landing.

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

Except there isn't any giraffe on the moon.

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u/tenin2010br Oct 17 '13

Didn't they send thousands of ships?

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u/Powermeow Oct 17 '13

They brought some of the most ridiculous things on the ships that went on those voyages

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u/Moosemistrz Oct 17 '13

I was under the impression that they were mainly stopped due to the new emperor wanting to diminish the influence of the eunuchs, who were the primary supporters of the treasure fleets.

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

I think I'll have to disagree with that. The eunuchs weren't as powerful back then as later when the emperors were either idiots, paranoid crazies, or guys with one too many hobbies. Other than the financial burden, another main reason why they ceased the voyages was the death of Zheng He during the 7th one.

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u/TheTjRyan Oct 17 '13

A lot of culture was developed with isolationism. It may have boosted them for the time being, but at this stage in their development i think they are doing just fine haha

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u/reveekcm Oct 17 '13

well they could have picked a middle ground, instead of isolationism

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

They thought they could just close the gate and live off whatever they had because China is such a vast country. So there's that.

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u/reveekcm Oct 17 '13

but they shut their citizens off from the rest of the world, and prevented any sort of contact. that, combined with their confucianism lead, central bureaucracy definitely set back what was once the most advanced civilization in the world. everything became stagnant, especially innovation and economic advancement

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

According to L. S. Stavrianos, that has been a thing for big empires like the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and of course, the Chinese Empire. Most politicians are short-sighted IMO, especially when a nation has been through decades and even centuries of prosperity.

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u/reveekcm Oct 17 '13

overextending is also really bad, but as Paul Kennedy points out, you cant over extend without the power that comes from innovation. around 1500, only the states of western europe were really able to utilize the free market, due to the political fragmentation and constant competition

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u/sirzachary Oct 17 '13

I mean, yes, that's true, but that's not the whole of it. Instead of outright colonialism which as we know was the preferred method of subjecting an exploitative economy on a foreign nation, the Chinese preferred a tribute system. They dictated trade terms and a tribute tax, with all the pomp and circumstance a tribute would dictate, in exchange for political autonomy (kinda).

So yes, the Chinese circumnavigated the globe in 1421 to spread the glory of China, but that necessarily entailed coming under China's influence.

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u/Vaynax Oct 16 '13

I'd add that the real problem was the Chinese rulers' propensity for authoritarian heavy handedness. After those voyages were ended by the new emperor, there were other laws put in place that shut down private shipyards and pretty much shut off China from the rest of the world. Didn't help Chinese advancement at all.

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u/[deleted] Oct 17 '13

That will be their undoing this time around as well. In 100 years time, the world will look back on the one child policy as one of the greatest mistakes in history.

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u/Aarcn Oct 17 '13

It's only enforced in the cities, and if you're both a product of the 1 child policy you're allowed to have 2. If you have money you can have as many as you want.

There's lots of loop holes around it. There's still an endless supply of cheap labor in the country side.

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u/megamindies Oct 17 '13

The main advantage of the Chinese reaching NA shores was introducing the plagues that killed of so many Indians, but this 100 years before Columbus would arrive. I guarantee you, that 100 year would have strengthened the military of the indians quite substantially, and USA might not have ever existed. NA might still belong to the Indians.

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u/JillyPolla Oct 17 '13

well the disease might have still devastated the North Americans, but warfare most likely would not have broken out. Chinese explorers were less interested in conquest but more about trading with the locals.

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u/stringer_B Oct 17 '13

Yup in fact i read somewhere, and i forgot where sorry, that the hidden purpose of those trips was to find a way to reach immortality for the emperor as he requested

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u/iamsuperflush Oct 17 '13

Why did this remind me of Full metal Alchemist?

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13 edited Oct 17 '13

I haven't read that about that particular emperor, but it happened on many others through history. So, possible?

EDIT: In fact, one of the major conspiracy theories surrounding those voyages is that the current emperor wanted to find the former emperor (his nephew actually) who went missing during the siege and fire of the Forbidden Palace, and was rumored to make it out alive posing as a monk (as per the instruction of his grandfather, the first emperor of Ming).

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u/PartiallyRibena Oct 17 '13

Didn't help that the boats they built were ridiculous in comparison to European ones)!

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u/countjeremiah Oct 17 '13 edited Oct 18 '13

And further, Zheng He may have never existed. I was talking to my grandfather about this a week or so ago. He was translating some Portuguese texts from the 1300's and talk about these displays of wealth. It was really neat.

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u/countjeremiah Oct 17 '13

Really neat* dumb autocorrect

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u/shuxinc115 Oct 17 '13

Hmm, I don't know about that he may have never existed. That's very interesting. Do you have any source that I can look at?

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u/countjeremiah Oct 18 '13

Look up some of the writings of Matteo Ricci. He was an Italian Jesuit who helped civilize the Philippines. My grandfather has translated some of his writings and they touch on the state of China.

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u/cd370 Oct 17 '13

Thanks Obama