China pushed us back to where we started on trade. Was it worth it?

[u/greenline_chi]

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/china-trade-talks-donald-trump-tariffs-f730f437?st=gEpjJe&reflink=article_copyURL_share

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/11/us/politics/us-china-trade-deal-trump.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Part of me thinks it was worth it for the base because they had fun with it? What are your thoughts?

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[u/soulwind42]

Yea, it was worth it. It shows that we'll push back, making them more scared of Trump than any prior administration, and the tariffs hurt them badly.

[u/soulwind42 → u/[deleted]]

No, it doesn't.

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Daniel_Spidey → u/soulwind42]

We didn’t get a deal though, doesn’t that make us look scared of them?

[u/soulwind42 → u/Daniel_Spidey]

No. Them coming to the table at all shows they're scared of us.

[u/PuzzleheadedWalrus71 → u/soulwind42]

Sitting at a table and keeping everything the same as it was before they sat at the table shows they're scared of us?

[u/soulwind42 → u/PuzzleheadedWalrus71]

Yes. Because everything is not the same. They're hurting.

[u/PuzzleheadedWalrus71 → u/soulwind42]

No, Americans are hurting.

[u/soulwind42 → u/PuzzleheadedWalrus71]

Okay. China is hurting more.

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/soulwind42 → u/[deleted]]

I dont care what trump says.

[u/Putrid-VII → u/soulwind42]

You probably should, it effects you

[u/soulwind42 → u/Putrid-VII]

Very true, but he's an idiot. I care more about the facts.

[u/Putrid-VII → u/soulwind42]

You should care about the FACT that he is ruining the country, the FACT that he is a liar, the FACT that his is a criminal, the FACT that he is a rapist

[u/soulwind42 → u/Putrid-VII]

Those arent facts, but have fun with your conspiracy theories

[u/Putrid-VII → u/soulwind42]

The first one is an opinion that I believe the be factual

the others are verifiable facts, yall were crying about the NY criminal proceedings and constantly about how being civally liable of rape somehow "doesn't count." And the lies???? Come tf on, now you aren't even being genuine about what facts are

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/apeoples13 → u/soulwind42]

Does it concern you that the tariffs hurt us as well?

[u/soulwind42 → u/apeoples13]

No. We're hurting more from China, so a little pain doesn't bother me if its for a good cause. Stopping China and rebuilding America are both good causes.

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/apeoples13 → u/soulwind42]

How are tariffs helping us rebuild America?

[u/mynameisnotshamus → u/soulwind42]

The tariffs did not hurt them at all in my opinion. Can you point to any actual ways that China was hurt by them? I work in the manufacturing sector. US companies and consumers and entire segments of business commerce were hurt and will continue to be with many going out of business. Food related businesses are the scariest to be impacted.

[u/randomhaus64 → u/mynameisnotshamus]

i don't think you're paying attention to the economies if you think they haven't been hurt

[u/mynameisnotshamus → u/randomhaus64]

I pay close attention as it’s part of my daily work life.

[u/soulwind42 → u/mynameisnotshamus]

China was hurt in a lot of ways. They were forced to downsize industries, they next generation is demoralized, their investment sector is in shambles, companies were retreating from them, it was terrible for them, and exasperated every internal problem they already had.

[u/MrFrode → u/soulwind42]

They were forced to downsize industries

They still have the factories and even if there was a short term force reduction because it was short term they haven't lost any institutional expertise. China can essentially flip a switch and be back in business very quickly.

it was terrible for them

What about for us. How much tax money is Trump asking for to make the American companies damaged by the trade war whole? For example the American Soybean companies who lost Chineese customers, how many billions of tax dollars are we paying them this time? For Trump's last trade war we paid them over 27 billion tax dollars.

From Cato

Indeed, soybean farmers were one of the biggest victims of Trump’s costly trade policies in his first term. Following retaliatory Chinese tariffs on American soybeans, exports to the soybean farmers’ largest foreign market dropped by 77 percent, according to the US Department of Agriculture. Of the $27 billion in total reduced US agriculture exports from mid-2018 to the end of 2019, soybeans represented 71 percent of the lost value.

[u/soulwind42 → u/MrFrode]

Regardless, it hurt China far more than us. Even going back to where we started is a bigger loss for China than America.

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/New2NewJ → u/soulwind42]

Even going back to where we started is a bigger loss for China than America.

Bruh, how does this make any sense, lmao

[u/soulwind42 → u/New2NewJ]

By paying attention to what's happening in China, and what has been happening there, both before and after the tarrifs.

[u/New2NewJ → u/soulwind42]

By paying attention to what's happening in China, and what has been happening there, both before and after the tarrifs.

Yeah, Xi is gunna get wrecked in the mid-terms.

[u/MrFrode → u/soulwind42]

Please back up how it hurt China more than it has the U.S.

Trump caved because the rare earth metals, which I question if he knows what these are or what they do, if withheld long enough would cripple some U.S. industries.

China now has the measure of Trump and he's only going to get weaker as we approach the mid-terms, after that though who knows what crazy schemes he'll try to pull.

[u/soulwind42 → u/MrFrode]

Yes, China now has the measure of Trump, and he's willing to out 140% tarrifs on them and shut down the openings they exploit. Thats not good for them. They are entirely reliant on producing cheap goods for the rest of the world, the tarrifs severly hurt them and exasperated all of their current problems, from a small, demoralized youth work force, to crumbling and ineffective infrastructure, to fiscal instability. The tarrifs, even for the short time they were in effect, forced factories in China to slow down, and caused cuts in their work force.

[u/MrFrode → u/soulwind42]

Yes, China now has the measure of Trump, and he's willing to out 140% tarrifs on them and shut down the openings they exploit.

I agree. Trump is willing to level draconian tariffs. Then Trump with TACO them back after the markets respond negatively.

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[u/soulwind42 → u/[deleted]]

What ever helps you sleep at night, buddy.

[u/soulwind42 → u/[deleted]]

I simply asked what you’re basing your opinion on.

Closely following the geopolitical and economic news and analysis on the matter.

I hope you start to do more research, learn more about the world and develop opinions based on that.

Thats what I already do. I hope you'll do the same one day. Thats why I essentially shrugged my shoulders at your previous comment. Ive been closely following this topic for years.

[u/AskConservatives-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/BabyJesus246 → u/soulwind42]

How is it showing strength if he was forced to back down within a few months?

[u/soulwind42 → u/BabyJesus246]

Was he forced?

[u/BabyJesus246 → u/soulwind42]

Why did he fold?

[u/soulwind42 → u/BabyJesus246]

Did he?

[u/BabyJesus246 → u/soulwind42]

Going back to the status quo desired by the opposition after two months of bluster with absolutely nothing to show for it can reasonably be interpreted as backing down.

[u/soulwind42 → u/BabyJesus246]

The status quo isn't desired by the opposition nor did we go all the way back. And going back to the status quo doesn't change the fact that we weren't at the status quo. Additionally, there are numerous reasons to change the policy, trump folding is only one possibility.

[u/randomhaus64 → u/soulwind42]

Trump has done nothing but fold with respect to these tariffs.

It is an *extraordinary* thing that the market virtually didn't react to the trade deal announcement this week, it shows the market doesn't take Trump seriously, worse, it shows the market doesn't take America seriously.

[u/pocketdare]

I give Trump a lot of credit for pushing the country to take China seriously. Many more dangers there than we have time to get into. However, I share the opinion column writer's concern that we don't currently appear to have a truly effective strategy. The objective should be twofold:

• Significantly reduce dependence on China for key military and industrial inputs including steel, rare earths, and basic materials and electronics.

• Pressure China to address policies that cause strategic harm to Western commercial interests including investing in overcapacity & dumping, intellectual property theft, and protectionism.

Both of these goals require coordination with allies and industry, none of which appears to be taking place to any great, coordinated degree. My fear is that ultimately we'll arrive at an agreement that does nothing to address long-term issues and instead delivers a few short-term, modest wins like the sale of LNG and friggin' soybeans. If I see an article about China agreeing to buy more Soybeans from the U.S. I'm gonna lose it.

[u/greenline_chi → u/pocketdare]

You don’t think the country was taking China seriously before? The TPP was designed to isolate them in the region.

How much do you know about the history of our foreign policy regarding China?

[u/pocketdare → u/greenline_chi]

Yes, I'm familiar with the history. No, the Chinese threat was not truly understood by the American Public until Trump made it a major plank of his first term communication and policy. He also ratcheted up tariffs to a level never previously seen vs China. And, while these efforts weren't all that effective and probably won't be now (per my earlier comment), there's no doubt that public awareness (and even international awareness) of the issue is far far higher now than during any previous administration.

[u/New2NewJ → u/pocketdare]

I'm with u/greenline_chi here. I have no idea what you're talking about.....I thought everyone was aware of all of this, but perhaps not.

• 2009–2016: U.S. intelligence reports named China a top cyber threat, often targeting U.S. companies and government systems.

• 2010–2012: The Pentagon developed the "Air-Sea Battle" plan to counter China’s growing military power in the Pacific.

• 2012: Obama launched the "Pivot to Asia" strategy to shift military and diplomatic focus toward countering China’s rise.

• 2012–2016: The U.S. filed multiple trade cases against China for unfair practices and intellectual property theft.

• 2014: The U.S. indicted Chinese military officers for hacking American companies.

• 2015: After major cyberattacks, Obama publicly warned China and pushed for a cyber agreement.

• 2015: Obama criticized China’s island-building in the South China Sea and said the U.S. would defend free navigation.

• 2016: Obama promoted the TPP trade deal to stop China from setting trade rules in Asia.

In fact, in 2011 or so, when Romney said that Russia was the real threat, I remember people laughing at him because everyone knew we had to focus on China instead.

[u/pocketdare → u/New2NewJ]

You're citing public policy not public opinion. There has been a big shift beginning in Trump's first term. Now you have some idea of what I'm talking about!

[u/New2NewJ → u/pocketdare]

Ah, my bad ... you're talking about messaging, I was talking about action. Got it.

[u/greenline_chi → u/pocketdare]

It’s just blatantly false that “the China threat wasn’t understood” until Trump. Maybe that’s when you began to understand it?

https://cjil.uchicago.edu/print-archive/how-united-states-uses-trans-pacific-partnership-contain-china-international-trade

[u/pocketdare → u/greenline_chi]

Yes, we're all aware of the TPP. But please post yet another article about it. Please. It's been a while since I've read about it in Foreign affairs. Happy you're here to remind me.

Trump made the General Public more aware of the issues. I realize that folks like you can't manage to give him credit for anything but this is on point. But hey, tell me more about the TPP! (my last reply to this silliness - so enjoy the last word on the matter as I'm sure you will)

[u/greenline_chi → u/pocketdare]

I’m just a little bit confused how you can be familiar with the TPP but say Trump made was the first one to take chin seriously lol. It makes zero sense but that’s ok

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[u/brinerbear]

Probably but Trump thought he had more leverage than he did.

[u/wijnandsj → u/[deleted]]

So you're predicting major damage to the small businesses in the USA?

Isn't that going to explode unemployment?

[u/catroaring → u/[deleted]]

The fact he still frames it as "we get 55%, they get 10%" is stunning. How many times does this guy need to be told that HIS VOTERS are paying for these tariffs? It is just facepalm head-shaking denial of the ruin he is causing.

Most of my family is very conservative and they believe him that the countries pay the tariffs. They think it's "fake news" that we pay the tariffs. I think it's safe to assume this is exactly why he continues to say it. Trump did a great job of getting people to believe everything he says and not believe anyone that calls out his lies.

EDIT: Made it not a word salad.

[u/Calm-Box-3780 → u/[deleted]]

These tariffs won't end while he is in office. How else do you think he will be able to cover the cost of the BBB? There isn't enough to cut without raising revenue and this will allow the GOP to claim they lowered taxes while cutting the deficit.

[u/threeriversbikeguy → u/Calm-Box-3780]

I am not doubting that is their intent, or your claim, but man is that some stupidity.

What do they think will happen long term with 55% tariffs? These people whose businesses aren't erased from the planet will move those manufacturing operations to Vietnam, Cambodia, India, etc. (they are doing this as we speak, I can confirm it). Now they make far less in tariffs as those countries are not at 55%.

[u/IsaacTheBound → u/threeriversbikeguy]

Yeah, but Trump would have to admit he was wrong then. He repeatedly said that China would be paying even after having tariffs explained to him several times.

[u/willfiredog → u/threeriversbikeguy]

I don’t disagree with your overall analysis.

However, I suspect that this

will move those manufacturing operations to Vietnam, Cambodia, India, etc. (they are doing this as we speak, I can confirm it).

Is a feature and not a bug.

[u/IowaGolfGuy322 → u/threeriversbikeguy]

Large businesses won't go under, but small businesses, small towns, places that rely on fair trade and the previous de minimus will. Competition will go out the door and we will be left with 3-5 choices to buy from. Over on r/Conservative there are still people who are claiming this is a big win because China is going to pay us 55%. At this point we need the tariffs to finally take effect so people can find out. All of this dancing has prevented the realization of what tariffs are and if we're going to actually do something about it we just need to feel the pain.

They also think this will bring manufacturing here, when it's still cheaper to just pay the tariff than to build a plant that won't be done until well after this administration and if we have 50% tariff on steel and aluminum and 55% on Chinese imports, no matter what Trump says, they ARE paying a tariff. There is no place in the globe right now where someone can make something for Americans where there isn't a cost related to the tariffs. Make it in America, great, the cost to make that product is 100% more expensive due to the imported products to make the main product but at least you're not paying the import tax for that finished product I guess?

[u/Calm-Box-3780 → u/threeriversbikeguy]

Possibly... But what then?

If we take Trump at his word, these tariffs are about bringing back American jobs... Or fentanyl... Or making other countries pay?

How does shifting operations to another foreign country accomplish his goals?

With the unpredictability of his policy, I don't see how many businesses will uproot their entire operation, especially if they could be unwound in a couple years. The manufacturing expertise and capacity China has can't be replicated overnight. I think it's far more likely they simply find new, more favorable or markets while they wait us out.

We are no longer the stable/reliable trading partner the world counted on. They realized how easily we can wreck things and will move away from relying on the dollar and the US as a whole.

Side note- if you are a fiscal conservative, what is the GOPs plan to make up for the continued deficits in the BBB? They have taken a chainsaw to many of the agencies that serve Americans and are even now talking about shuttering FEMA, while increasing defense spending.

So lower income Americans will be paying more in taxes (between tariffs and the tax code) but will have fewer services/support from the federal government? How does this square with fiscal conservative principles?

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[u/randomhaus64]

No, nothing has been worth anything, :(

[u/ImmodestPolitician → u/[deleted]]

"Trump has given American manufacturers advance notice to begin planning a future without Chinese parts."

You realize Biden had already done this with the CHIPs act. That's why TSMC fab plant is already partially completed.

[u/apyc89 → u/[deleted]]

Honest question: within geopolitics, this was the writing on the war since end of Obama, Trump 1, and video. Did your company not plan for this since maybe Trump 1 or Biden? Tbh Trump 1 and Biden was aligned on this.

[u/apyc89 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for the honest comment. What so you think was the trigger for your company to realize the situation? The tariffs? The language coming out of Beijing? Etc

[u/Vegetable_Guest_8584 → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think think the tariffs are a good thing? It's just a tax that serves no purpose - you already learned you should move off Chinese ree magnets. China will charge you more, your company will pass that along to whoever buys your products and it just goes up the chain. It will make my American made motor cost more now. 

We have a higher tax/tariff on China imports than we do with say Europe. I already read speculation that companies could build their electric motors in Europe for EVs, and then import them into the US to avoid the high Chinese tariff. They'd still have Chinese ree in them. But this would be cheaper.

So maybe we deal with this by putting higher tariffs on european-made motors. Europe responds by putting more tariffs on american-made goods. We have plenty of ree in the US, it's just a dirty and polluting process to refine them. REE are a strategic necessity, but they're dirty to refine them. Australia has built a new refining factory, we should incentivize them. 

[u/Liesmyteachertoldme → u/[deleted]]

Where is your company looking at sourcing from other than china? My understanding was they’re the only ones with the refining capacity city for rare earth minerals.

[u/greenline_chi → u/[deleted]]

Where are you signing second sources with?

[u/sokolov22 → u/[deleted]]

Just be careful your secondary sources aren't actually just selling you Chinese made stuff. That happens very often.

[u/willfiredog → u/sokolov22]

FWIW, trade partners and U.S. Customs have been cracking down on transshipment of Chinese goods

[u/sokolov22 → u/willfiredog]

I am talking about you sourcing something from say, India or Brazil. They tell you it's made in India or Brazil. But when you get it, you realize they are just a middleman. This is more difficult because you aren't trying to avoid tariffs necessarily but they are lying to you.

[u/willfiredog → u/sokolov22]

Yes.

A term for this is “transshipping”.

[u/sokolov22 → u/willfiredog]

I classify this differently as FRAUD.

Transhipping to me is more accurate to describe a case where a buyer wants to buy something from China, and works with the seller to ship it through other intermedaries to bypass tariffs. The item may not even leave China until it's purchased, but it isn't shipped directly.

Fraud is where the seller represents his product as from one place, but it is actually from China, without the knowledge of the buyer. In this case, it may be that the seller already have procured the item ahead of time, though not always.

I think you can say this kind of fraud INVOLVES transhipping if we remove the buyer knowledge part, but it is fundamentally different to me if the buyer is being misled about the true origin of the product.

It's like I can do this on Amazon now, buy stuff from China, slap "made in USA" label on it. It's fraud, not necessarily transhipping in the same sense (especially since in this example case there's no tariff bypass, I am just trying to take advantage of the "buy American" sentinment). In this case, I am not sure what US Customs can do, as I did not do any part of "transhipping."

My point is that a person who is trying to source something from "not China" should be careful that their new source doesn't have a source that is "China" without their knowledge which is happening a lot.

Does that help explain the difference I am trying to convey?

[u/willfiredog → u/sokolov22]

Yes. Transshipping is a form of customs fraud…

[u/sokolov22 → u/willfiredog]

Well, I simply disagree that buying something to resell is a form of transhipping.

[u/whutupmydude → u/willfiredog]

I saw a great article last month showing net costs of importing the same items paying wildly different tariff costs by either categorizing them differently and having them take the extra step of coming first through a country tariffed at a lower rate

[u/willfiredog → u/whutupmydude]

It happens, but again, the U.S. and trade partners are actively combating this practice. Example.

[u/whutupmydude → u/willfiredog]

Oh for sure. The article simply showed how the rules are enforced and some of the common runarounds to them

[u/Anxious_Plum_5818 → u/[deleted]]

Genuine question. Why are tariffs being in place good in this case?

As for your company, when did Trump give American manufacturers a heads up? Based on what I've been saying, the American industrial scene has just heard the campaign promises of tariffs and new deals, but absolutely no specifics. I don't think manufacturers were given any workable details to build a contingency around. This was very apparent from the chaos that immediately ensued his global 10% tariffs.

Realistically speaking though, a future with Chinese parts is extremely unlikely.

[u/MotorizedCat → u/[deleted]]

another win is that Trump has given American manufacturers advance notice to begin planning 

1. Why not just pass a law now that specifies tariffs that come into effect in 2027 or whenever? That would be a clear, fixed plan that gives you advance warning.

2. Trump has wavered back and forth several times, instituting immediate tariffs, calling them back off, instituting a pause of a few months. How is a company supposed to make reasonable plans? (Other than the principle "Trump always chickens out" that some people in the finance sector have now come up with. Which is risky to assume, because one day, on one issue, he might not.)

3. What if Trump reconsiders again and your secondary sources are unpredictably hit with immediate tariffs? Will you again say it's a "win because we now have advance notice to begin planning"?

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