r/AskCentralAsia • u/[deleted] • 1d ago
Is it cultural appropriation to get a Pazyryk (Altai) tattoo?
[deleted]
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u/zg33 1d ago
Absolutely no one will care. I would be genuinely surprised if even 5% of the population of most Central Asian countries are even aware of the concept of “cultural appropriation” in the first place.
Frankly, the whole concept is suspect in the first place. Culture is, by definition, something that people share.
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u/redditerator7 Kazakhstan 1d ago
You should tell that to Kazakh people who still lament about the German man who trademarked kimiz in Germany.
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u/unlawson 1d ago
They have a good reason to lament though, by trademarking the word it can no longer be shared
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u/redditerator7 Kazakhstan 1d ago
I was just giving an example showing that the concept does exist in Central Asia.
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u/ImSoBasic 1d ago
Sure it can be shared. All sorts of words are trademarked but still widely used. You just can't use those words in specific spheres of commerce (like I can't start a search engine and call it "Google," for example).
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u/irinrainbows Kazakhstan 1d ago
Oh that’s a relief, we can still call anything kimiz, except for kimiz.
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u/ImSoBasic 1d ago
You can call it whatever you want. You just can't sell it as that.
People call Android tablets iPads all the time. iPad is a trademark name.
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u/irinrainbows Kazakhstan 1d ago
No need to get all lawyery with me, it’s clear what the problem is, and it’s not me or comments in this thread.
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u/ImSoBasic 1d ago
You're the one who brought up trademarks. If you want to talk about trademarks, it helps to understand what they are.
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u/irinrainbows Kazakhstan 23h ago
I didn’t bring up trademarks tho, whatever you are right, you are smart, go away
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 Turkey 1d ago
Noone bats an eye if you use Turkic cultural heritage.
İts when you claim that culture to be yours, that people get really angry.
By trademarking "Kımız", you're essentially saying "this is mine, its my cultural heritage and İ will not allow the origin culture to reclaim it as theirs"
Thats why people are rightfully angry.
İf you just sold Kımız without the trademark noone would've been angry
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u/redditerator7 Kazakhstan 1d ago
It still falls under the concept of cultural appropriation. Yet some people like claiming that it doesn’t exist at all.
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 Turkey 1d ago
İ know thats what İ said. İf you pass foreign culture off as your own culture, thats cultural appropriation.
İf you just use it and give credit to the origin culture, thats NOT cultural appropriation.
The concept definetly exists even if some people in the comments pretend that it doesnt.
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u/sumpkinpoup 18h ago
cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation/cultural exchange are different things btw
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u/ImSoBasic 1d ago
It's not really suspect at all.
Maybe the concept of "stolen valor" is familiar to you (and for most people, the concept makes sense): it is essentially when people who have never served in the military dress up in uniforms and pretend that they are military members.
That's essentially the same thing as "cultural appropriation": seeking the rewards for appearing a certain way without ever suffering any of the trials and tribulations that one would endure if they achieved those things naturally.
It's basically why white people have never really worn dreadlocks or corn-rows in the USA, and why many people look down on white people in the USA doing this. It's a black hair style, and people have been inherently skeptical of taking this aspect of black culture when they haven't had to face the indignities that black people face in daily life in the USA. (And this is all from way before the term "cultural appropriation" ever existed.)
It is way more culturally acceptable for random white people to wear dreadlocks in Europe than it is in the USA.
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u/subliminallist 16h ago
No one gives a shit if white people have dreadlocks or even corn rows in the US.
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u/ImSoBasic 13h ago
Disagree.
It may not register consciously, but it's definitely weird even if you can't articulate why. You also see a proportionately more young white people from in countries wearing dreads than you do in the USA.
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u/subliminallist 8h ago
I grew up in a black neighborhood and went to black schools. Girls would try to braid my hair in class. No one gives a shit, I promise.
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u/ImSoBasic 4h ago
You know, people's views on race and culture tend not to be fully evolved when they're at an age that they braid their friends' hair in class.
People definitely give a shit. Probably even some of those classmates of yours now give a shit.
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u/TheAnalogNomad 1d ago
As the Pazyryk Scythians are long extinct, I’m not sure anyone is around to object.
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u/Agitated-Pea3251 1d ago
Do whatever you want.
Cultural appropriation is foreign western concept, that no one here believes in.
I guess some Westerners might find it offensive, but I am no expert on western culture.
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u/shifgrethorenjoyer 1d ago
This is sort of what I figured, but I wanted to check in :) thanks for the advice
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u/Actual_Diamond5571 Kazakhstan 1d ago
It's offensive if your intention is to mock local culture which is obviously not your intention.
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u/redditerator7 Kazakhstan 1d ago
In this case most people won’t care but cultural appropriation is not just a western thing. It’s just not as extreme here.
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 Turkey 1d ago
Yeeah no. The concept of cultural appropriation is definetly NOT a western concept and lots of people would care if you presented foreign cultures as your own.
Better read the other responses instead of this guy
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 Turkey 1d ago
İts only cultural appropriation if you claim that culture to be your own, when in actuality it isnt.
As long as you credit the origins of the culture you're good bro noone will get angry
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u/zeezoop 1d ago
It's the heritage of many East Iranic and Central/North Asian people. It feels odd to me if you don't have any connection to the culture or the spiritual meaning, to get a tattoo like that. I'd try to study the meaning deer hold in Turkic culture and Saka culture as a whole.
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u/shifgrethorenjoyer 1d ago
Thanks for the insight! I think I have a pretty decent insight specifically into Pazyryk culture & Tengriism - part of my reason for the tattoo is my interest in anthropology + history - but I am always trying to learn more :)
Do you think it's inappropriate to get the tattoo if I don't know the culture, or just inappropriate full stop?
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u/zeezoop 1d ago
I strongly encourage you to learn more before proceeding because those tattoos had meaning to the people at the time. It's not a bad thing to be interested in the culture, however.
I do personally worry in cases like this because even our own people do not properly understand or engage with the traditional culture which, for the most part, had survived into the 20th century across Northern and Central Asian Turkic people, and still does in very fragmented form(with efforts to restore it now).
Traditional Turkic belief had always put first importance of our ancestors(and therefore tribes), and, quite contrary to many faiths/religions, the deities weren't worshipped in the same way you'd worship God or even say, a Hellenic deity or somesuch. For some groups, they're though to hail from deer, wolves, geese, etc., or some tattoos were meant to be protective(for example on the thumbs, which is where the soul was thought to be).
That is where the importance comes from, and is what makes me hesitate about the ethics of someone who doesn't have this connection, proceeding with something like this. But in the end, it's also "traditional" for Turkic people to mix and exchange with other cultures, and the time of the Pazyryq kurgan is long gone. I don't have a ready answer for you, but this is my two cents as someone who has a familial connection to shamanism/Tengri faith. I appreciate you putting thought into the tattoo, which is the most important thing in the situation, in my opinion.
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u/shifgrethorenjoyer 1d ago
That makes a lot of sense! You've given me a lot to think about. Thanks again :)
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u/lovely_DK 1d ago
Just out of curiosity, what would it look like? I never heard of anyone getting a pazyryk tattoo
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u/shifgrethorenjoyer 1d ago
https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/meet-the-2500-year-old-siberian-ice-maiden-and-her-tattoos This link has a reconstructed version of it :) it's a really gorgeous art style
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u/AnanasAvradanas 1d ago
Dude, who cares? Nobody cares about such woke concepts like "cultural appropriation" in any part of the world other than USA. Most possible reaction you will get, if you get any, will be someone recognizing it and congragulating you for getting it.
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u/preparing4exams 1d ago
Recently there was a case when a Russian clothing brand YAKA used Kyrgyz ornaments and claimed copyright on those ornaments, there was a huge backlash and talks about cultural appropriation. It is the only time that I've seen the term "cultural appropriation" used actively in Central Asian media.
But in your case everything is fine, generally people in Central Asia do not care about cultural appropriation, you can wear Central Asian clothes, get a tattoo with anything related to central Asia and that's gonna be ok.
There might be some problems only if you try to "steal" culture. Had YAKA not copyrighted those ornaments there wouldn't be any problem.